Understanding Homophobia

Its causes and possible cures

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#121  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 22, 2017 4:20 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
And I am not defending homosexuality.


Yep. How far inside out does it have to be turned in order to turn rejection of homophobia into defense of homosexuality?

The rejection of homophobia is the defence of homosexuality.


How do you figure? You're simply repeating a claim you've already made, but have never defended.

Present your argument. First of all, try working out why homosexuality needs a defence at all.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#122  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 22, 2017 5:00 pm

Homosexuality needs defending because of all the homophobia. In a world free from homophobia homosexuality is accepted as being perfectly normal and harmless universally. Thinking on this issue I revert to the theory that homophobic people fail to realise that if they were gay they'd still enjoy a pleasurable sex/fantasy life. They fear the loss of their straight sex/fantasy life.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#123  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 22, 2017 5:05 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Homosexuality needs defending because of all the homophobia.

This begs the question that homophobia is a rational position. Which it isn't.

Keep It Real wrote: In a world free from homophobia homosexuality is accepted as being perfectly normal and harmless universally. Thinking on this issue I revert to the theory that homophobic people fail to realise that if they were gay they'd still enjoy a pleasurable sex/fantasy life. They fear the loss of their straight sex/fantasy life.

:roll:
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#124  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 22, 2017 5:16 pm

It depends whether you think maximising the chances of propagating your genetic material is important. Our innate drives should make us homophobic, so it's understandable, but then again, on an intellectual level, which can possibly override that drive, who gives a fuck about propagating genetic material?
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#125  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 22, 2017 5:19 pm

Keep It Real wrote:It depends whether you think maximising the chances of propagating your genetic material is important.

There is no objective moral imperative to do this.
More-over propagating your own genes doesn't require every single person to be straight.

Keep It Real wrote:Our innate drives should make us homophobic,

How do you figure?

Keep It Real wrote: so it's understandable,

It's understandable people are afraid of things they don't understand. Homophobia specifically, not however.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#126  Postby Matthew Shute » Jul 22, 2017 5:21 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
And I am not defending homosexuality.


Yep. How far inside out does it have to be turned in order to turn rejection of homophobia into defense of homosexuality?

The rejection of homophobia is the defence of homosexuality.


By that reasoning, not wanting to be an arachnophobe is a defence of arachnidity. While compatible, they're not identical, are they? There are wholly selfish reasons to reject and attempt to overcome irrational fears or hatreds.

Thinking on this issue I revert to the theory that homophobic people fail to realise that if they were gay they'd still enjoy a pleasurable sex/fantasy life. They fear the loss of their straight sex/fantasy life.


:-?

Given that homophobes tend to voice the same fears and/or hatreds towards bisexuals as they do towards gay people, I'm not sure that this explains very much about homophobia.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#127  Postby laklak » Jul 22, 2017 5:29 pm

I don't males have a genetic imperative to reproduce, they have a genetic imperative to splooge as often as possible. If this were not true then there wouldn't be so much poopy sex in prison.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#128  Postby tuco » Jul 22, 2017 5:46 pm

You seem to know well lol

Its uncontroversial that every organism has biological imperative to reproduce simply because reproduction is characteristic of life as we know it. This is elementary school stuff.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#129  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 22, 2017 5:48 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thinking on this issue I revert to the theory that homophobic people fail to realise that if they were gay they'd still enjoy a pleasurable sex/fantasy life. They fear the loss of their straight sex/fantasy life.


:-?

Given that homophobes tend to voice the same fears and/or hatreds towards bisexuals as they do towards gay people, I'm not sure that this explains very much about homophobia.

Evidence?
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#130  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 22, 2017 5:51 pm

laklak wrote:I don't males have a genetic imperative to reproduce, they have a genetic imperative to splooge as often as possible. If this were not true then there wouldn't be so much poopy sex in prison.

We probably have both - the need to splooge and the need to reproduce (If you haven't intellectualised yourself out of the genetic imperative that is).
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#131  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 22, 2017 6:00 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thinking on this issue I revert to the theory that homophobic people fail to realise that if they were gay they'd still enjoy a pleasurable sex/fantasy life. They fear the loss of their straight sex/fantasy life.


:-?

Given that homophobes tend to voice the same fears and/or hatreds towards bisexuals as they do towards gay people, I'm not sure that this explains very much about homophobia.

Evidence?

Given your propensity to spew one assertion after another, you're in no position to demand evidence yourself.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#132  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 22, 2017 6:06 pm

Keep It Real wrote:the genetic imperative


Think of the potential as foreplay, though: "Let's fuck: I'm really feeling the need to propagate my genetic material this evening." Nope. It's never been tried before. Not a chance.

Talk about intellectualizing oneself out of the genetic imperative. Passively. Perhaps not the imperative. Just forfeiting the game.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#133  Postby tuco » Jul 22, 2017 7:01 pm

Intellectualizing oneself into celibate.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#134  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jul 22, 2017 7:35 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:My guess is that genetics actually has determined the structure of all those axonal highways that are in place in our brains at birth. I think it quite reasonable to believe that that structure leads to male on female mating most of the time.


What you think is reasonable turns out to be no better than a tautology. Sexual reproduction evolved long before any axonal highways did. In fact, axonal highways are one of the factors helping to explain failures of sexually mature organisms to produce offspring of their own. Otherwise, sexual reproduction is automatic. FFS, higher plants reproduce sexually. Your second (mistaken) sentence is based on the ignorance demonstrated in the first, in case you've never heard of fetal alcohol syndrome or low-birth-weight deliveries among women who smoke during pregnancy.

That seems a little confused to me. Try again.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#135  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jul 22, 2017 7:41 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:I think the agenda is that hey - you'd better not be homophobic or everybody will think you're gay, and given that you're homophobic that's one of the last things you'd want, so if you are homophobic you'd better not tell anybody or act on it in any way - thereby protecting the gay community.


Another thing you could try would be to quit blowing out plaintive rationalizations based on some sort of anxiety that somebody might think you're gay if you're homophobic. There are plenty of good reasons not to be homophobic. Worrying about whether somebody thinks you're homophobic (and hence, might be gay) is probably the least of your worries, innit?
...

I'm going to have to ask you for an airtight definition of what it means to be homophobic. For me it means having a strong negative reaction to seeing two men kissing. All the 'good reasons' in the universe are not going to change that just like good reason doesn't aversion to pain. So what the hell are you talking about? :what:

I'm guessing that the further reasoning of the classic gay hater homophobe is just a rationalization of something innate.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#136  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jul 22, 2017 7:43 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:I think the agenda is that hey - you'd better not be homophobic or everybody will think you're gay, and given that you're homophobic that's one of the last things you'd want, so if you are homophobic you'd better not tell anybody or act on it in any way - thereby protecting the gay community.


Another thing you could try would be to quit blowing out plaintive rationalizations based on some sort of anxiety that somebody might think you're gay if you're homophobic. There are plenty of good reasons not to be homophobic. Worrying about whether somebody thinks you're homophobic (and hence, might be gay) is probably the least of your worries, innit?

I wouldn't mind if I was gay - that's how I got over my homophobia. If you mind if you're gay, you're gonna be homophobic methinks.

I don't care if I 'turn gay' overnight. I have no iron in the dating fire. I am meaning something else by homophobic.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#137  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jul 22, 2017 7:48 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:You stuck your foot in it when you threatened him with how genetics can actually work. My guess is that genetics actually has determined the structure of all those axonal highways that are in place in our brains at birth. I think it quite reasonable to believe that that structure leads to male on female mating most of the time. How that happens exactly is what got me into neuroscience in the first place. My big questions is how do genes wire a brain to prefer a .7 waist to hip ratio across so many cultures. My guess now is that it does that indirectly because females have that ratio when they are by other conditions more likely to bear offspring. But who the hell knows for sure?

All we know is that this happens too damned much to be without mechanism.

Now, that is an interesting problem. How do genes code for a value judgment?

What is the historical value for that ratio? Has it held through time, or is it a contemporary style thing?

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According to the literature it holds across 35 cultures and they seemed to be doing careful studies. Not sure how to do studies in time without some machinery. It is vexing. I mean how and the hell does a gene do that to an organism? Note that the waist size makes no difference, just the ratio. I would want to see the study on a tribe of men who had been raised without any contact with women at all. Then a tribe without any kind of language or sign.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#138  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 22, 2017 7:53 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:I think the agenda is that hey - you'd better not be homophobic or everybody will think you're gay, and given that you're homophobic that's one of the last things you'd want, so if you are homophobic you'd better not tell anybody or act on it in any way - thereby protecting the gay community.


Another thing you could try would be to quit blowing out plaintive rationalizations based on some sort of anxiety that somebody might think you're gay if you're homophobic. There are plenty of good reasons not to be homophobic. Worrying about whether somebody thinks you're homophobic (and hence, might be gay) is probably the least of your worries, innit?
...

I'm going to have to ask you for an airtight definition of what it means to be homophobic. For me it means having a strong negative reaction to seeing two men kissing. All the 'good reasons' in the universe are not going to change that just like good reason doesn't aversion to pain. So what the hell are you talking about? :what:


Make up whatever definition suits you, as long as the reason for doing so is applying it only to yourself. It's going to be more work to get others universally to accept your categories. That's about winning the internet.

You don't have to talk about your negative reactions, explore them, confront them, or whatever. If your negative reaction to depictions of homosexual activity in males is disrupting your life, you might want to do something about it. If it's just you saying what a manly man you are, that's fine, too. For my money, one less thing to be afraid of is one less thing to be afraid of, in the sense that you're trying to avoid having negative feelings that you want to be responsible for.

If you slaughter your own animals for meat, then you face something with clinical detachment that I might have to work at to face clinically myself. The kinds of things we don't want exposure to are somewhat arbitrary, and if that's your thing to avoid, then nobody should pressure you into accepting it. That's a far cry from making up airtight definitions, which don't belong in this sort of discussion.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#139  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 22, 2017 7:58 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:I think the agenda is that hey - you'd better not be homophobic or everybody will think you're gay, and given that you're homophobic that's one of the last things you'd want, so if you are homophobic you'd better not tell anybody or act on it in any way - thereby protecting the gay community.


Another thing you could try would be to quit blowing out plaintive rationalizations based on some sort of anxiety that somebody might think you're gay if you're homophobic. There are plenty of good reasons not to be homophobic. Worrying about whether somebody thinks you're homophobic (and hence, might be gay) is probably the least of your worries, innit?

I wouldn't mind if I was gay - that's how I got over my homophobia. If you mind if you're gay, you're gonna be homophobic methinks.

I don't care if I 'turn gay' overnight. I have no iron in the dating fire. I am meaning something else by homophobic.

I don't have an aversion to seeing gay images since I got over my homophobia...it's just like watching paint dry - it has no emotional impact whatsoever. Your aversion to gay images is a mystery to me, if you don't mind if you were gay.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#140  Postby tuco » Jul 22, 2017 8:19 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:You stuck your foot in it when you threatened him with how genetics can actually work. My guess is that genetics actually has determined the structure of all those axonal highways that are in place in our brains at birth. I think it quite reasonable to believe that that structure leads to male on female mating most of the time. How that happens exactly is what got me into neuroscience in the first place. My big questions is how do genes wire a brain to prefer a .7 waist to hip ratio across so many cultures. My guess now is that it does that indirectly because females have that ratio when they are by other conditions more likely to bear offspring. But who the hell knows for sure?

All we know is that this happens too damned much to be without mechanism.

Now, that is an interesting problem. How do genes code for a value judgment?

What is the historical value for that ratio? Has it held through time, or is it a contemporary style thing?

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According to the literature it holds across 35 cultures and they seemed to be doing careful studies. Not sure how to do studies in time without some machinery. It is vexing. I mean how and the hell does a gene do that to an organism? Note that the waist size makes no difference, just the ratio. I would want to see the study on a tribe of men who had been raised without any contact with women at all. Then a tribe without any kind of language or sign.


How does a gene do anything to organism? Perhaps it would be easier to start with less complex and less culturally conditioned organisms than humans.
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