Apparently you are not. I told you in post #81 how it works and what have you done with it?

From where I sit, ignored it and carried on with your "explanations", which I repeat mean nothing to reality.

Keep It Real wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:
Rubbish. Are you thinking that sexual orientation is some sort of a thing you can like or dislike? A matter of taste? Do you even think changing channels is even possible? I don't.

The APA says people realise they are gay, straight or bi at different times during their lives.

Your point being?

Keep It Real wrote: I'm certainly aware of many case studies where lesbians move into straight relationships, or people renounce their historic heterosexuality for homosexuality. People do change channels sometimes.

Except they don't.
Sexual orientation isn't determined by what sex you're in a relationship with.
It's determined by the sex(es) you're attracted to.

Keep It Real wrote:

My orientation is simply what I am. I didn't choose this, I didn't think about it to consider what would be more "satisfying". It is as much a part of me as my considerable height, my hauntingly deep brown eyes, my distinguished greying but complete head of hair, and my chiseled, rugged good looks. I see no reason to suggest the same wouldn't apply for anyone of any other sexual orientation, or any other trait they didn't choose, but were born possessing.

The evidence suggests people are not born with their sexual orientation (20% concordance for monozygotic twins and homosexuality).

I already corrected you on this KIR. Mindlessly regurgitating it won't make it any less flawed.

Keep It Real wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:
Rubbish.

No; I'm pretty convinced it's the truth.

Fortunately reality doesn't operate on KIR's personal (in)credulity.

Keep It Real wrote:
Anyway; I've moved away from that now - the fact many people aren't homophobic (including myself) would seem to negate the evolutionary psychology explanation for it.

That's a complete non-sequitur. Especially since it's already been pointed out to you that humans have an instinctual fear of the unkown/different. This instinct can of course vary in strength.

Keep It Real wrote:You don't think that people can change?

Not conciously no. I am also not convinced people unconciously change between mutually exclusive orientations, but I am open to the possibility should evidence be presented.

Keep It Real wrote: I swear down I'm not homophobic anymore.

Your comments as well as you refusal to acknowledge refutations of your arguments, demonstrates otherwise.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:You don't think that people can change?

Not conciously no.

There's no such thing as consciousness. There's no such thing as choice. People do change; as they learn and are buffeted by their environmental experiences and genetics.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Keep It Real wrote: I swear down I'm not homophobic anymore.

Your comments as well as you refusal to acknowledge refutations of your arguments, demonstrates otherwise.

Reported.

Keep It Real wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:You don't think that people can change?

Not conciously no.

There's no such thing as consciousness.

I was talking about z concious choice, as in you knowingly and intentionally changing your sexuality.

Keep It Real wrote: There's no such thing as choice.

You need to actually demonstrate that, not just assert.

Keep It Real wrote: People do change; as they learn and are buffeted by their environmental experiences and genetics.

Citation missing.

Keep It Real wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Keep It Real wrote: I swear down I'm not homophobic anymore.

Your comments as well as you refusal to acknowledge refutations of your arguments, demonstrates otherwise.

Reported.

OK so I know why I'm not homophobic anymore. In order not to be homophobic one needs to realise it would be absolutely fine if one was gay - otherwise one is always afraid deep down that one is merely in denial and secretly harbours homosexual desires, although one is not consciously aware of them at the time.

Introspection is a wonderful thing.

Vertiginous homophobic collapse is an interesting theory of mine IMO - not sure if I've mentioned it before on this forum. It would potentially explain why very homophobic people sometimes come out as/turn (dunno) gay. The theory stipulates that much as standing at the very edge of a cliff, many people fear they will jump or step forward...they are so petrified of falling off the cliff and they obsess about the thought and a part of them wishes to realise that reality. So the severe homophobe fears "falling" into homosexuality so much, obsessing about it so deeply, that sometimes they do actually take the step forward and fall off the cliff and embrace homosexuality. Any good peeps?

wow this thread is so full of embarrassing nonsense posted by me lol. Oh well - live and learn.

oops - did it again - embarrassment is not compatible with the view that we do not have free will. Doh!

Keep It Real wrote:OK so I know why I'm not homophobic anymore. In order not to be homophobic one needs to realise it would be absolutely fine if one was gay - otherwise one is always afraid deep down that one is merely in denial and secretly harbours homosexual desires, although one is not consciously aware of them at the time.

I don't buy this "everyone who's homophobic is secretly gay" nonsense. Some folks, sure. But I've no doubt there are plenty of homophobic people out there for whom their heterosexuality isn't in question. They just find gay sex repulsive, which isn't surprising because they're heterosexual. The problem is they think anyone should give a shit that they're repulsed by it. It is demonstrably absolutely fine to be gay, and no meaningful or relevant reason has been presented as to why it's not.

Keep It Real wrote:oops - did it again - embarrassment is not compatible with the view that we do not have free will. Doh!

It's almost like you don't believe what you believe

Keep It Real wrote:OK so I know why I'm not homophobic anymore. In order not to be homophobic one needs to realise it would be absolutely fine if one was gay - otherwise one is always afraid deep down that one is merely in denial and secretly harbours homosexual desires, although one is not consciously aware of them at the time.

SafeAsMilk wrote:I don't buy this "everyone who's homophobic is secretly gay" nonsense.

Me neither and I didn't advocate that view in the quoted post above. I think most, if not all homophobes, are afraid that if they accept homosexuality as normal and perfectly OK and satisfying they will become gay themselves; that they harbour unconscious repressed homosexuality hidden in their mind. This explains why they are repulsed by homosexual images too.

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I've no doubt there are plenty of homophobic people out there for whom their heterosexuality isn't in question. They just find gay sex repulsive, which isn't surprising because they're heterosexual.

I think it is surprising and inexplicable without my explanation above. I'm pretty damn sure I could watch male gay porn no probs and it would be like watching paint dry (wouldn't want to see any scat elements 'cos I do find that repulsive but that's a different story altogether ).

SafeAsMilk wrote:It is demonstrably absolutely fine to be gay, and no meaningful or relevant reason has been presented as to why it's not.

These days in most countries most of the time yes. There are still a lot of homophobes out there however unfortunately so it's not totally peace yet.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:oops - did it again - embarrassment is not compatible with the view that we do not have free will. Doh!

It's almost like you don't believe what you believe

I guess it's hard...if not impossible to let go of one's ego (soul? ) completely. Might even be dangerous to attempt to do so....nobody knows AFAIK.

Keep It Real wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:OK so I know why I'm not homophobic anymore. In order not to be homophobic one needs to realise it would be absolutely fine if one was gay - otherwise one is always afraid deep down that one is merely in denial and secretly harbours homosexual desires, although one is not consciously aware of them at the time.

SafeAsMilk wrote:I don't buy this "everyone who's homophobic is secretly gay" nonsense.

Me neither and I didn't advocate that view in the quoted post above. I think most, if not all homophobes, are afraid that if they accept homosexuality as normal and perfectly OK and satisfying they will become gay themselves; that they harbour unconscious repressed homosexuality hidden in their mind. This explains why they are repulsed by homosexual images too.

I'm a bit confused because here you say you don't advocate what I quoted you saying, and then you follow that statement with a declaration of pretty much exactly the same thing as what I quoted you saying. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "advocate"?

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I've no doubt there are plenty of homophobic people out there for whom their heterosexuality isn't in question. They just find gay sex repulsive, which isn't surprising because they're heterosexual.

I think it is surprising and inexplicable without my explanation above. I'm pretty damn sure I could watch male gay porn no probs and it would be like watching paint dry (wouldn't want to see any scat elements 'cos I do find that repulsive but that's a different story altogether ).

Well I'm speaking as a bisexual, so I can't pretend to speak for heterosexuals. But I definitely find some forms of sex repulsive, it's just I don't think that means they are de-facto bad. I think a lot of people don't hold this view, they think because they find a form of sex repulsive ("pussy is great, dicks are gross!"), then that means it's bad, unnatural, whatever. This makes way more sense to me than there being tons of people with some secret Freudian bullshit going on. You used the example of scat, that should give you the idea. You find scat totally gross, but there's no reason other people shouldn't enjoy it consensually, right?

SafeAsMilk wrote:It is demonstrably absolutely fine to be gay, and no meaningful or relevant reason has been presented as to why it's not.

These days in most countries most of the time yes. There are still a lot of homophobes out there however unfortunately so it's not totally peace yet.

And I thought of mentioning just this point That there are homophobes who would treat gays badly just for being gay isn't a problem with homosexuality. The thing that is bad in that situation is the homophobes, not homosexuality, so there is no need to qualify my statement that there is no real reason why homosexuality isn't totally fine.