Understanding Homophobia

Its causes and possible cures

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#41  Postby tolman » Jun 20, 2015 1:16 am

Keep It Real wrote:That's the mystery in my mind - why everybody isn't homophobic. Maybe some people are so sure of their sexual orientation they refuse to believe they could catch teh gay. Perhaps we're right; perhaps not.

It's not really a mystery to me.
I grew up with typical childish homophobia at a point when gay people tended to be relatively hidden, apart from the odd camp media personality, so were definitely very 'other', and was then exposed to its laddish continuation at a very male university.

Looking back, I'm not at all sure what my attitudes were in my early 20s - I may well have laughed along at jokes for fear of standing out, but I would have done the same for sexist jokes I didn't really find funny, and I did used to find it slightly strange looking at the sea of leather when my beer-fuelled sprint cycle route from pub to home took me past the Coleherne at closing time, but I do know that when various close friends came out, my reaction, apart from being slightly surprised and concerned for how other people might treat them was essentially 'meh'.

Maybe I was in an odd situation - I wasn't particularly interested in sex before I was adult, and when I was a young adult, the environment was so male (and so geeky) that having male friends who were single wasn't at all odd.

But basically, I just grew up and learned stuff, and I would likely have done so sooner had there been meaningful numbers of 'normal' gay public figures, rather than me having to wait to find out that various normal friends (or at least people as normal as I was) were actually gay.
What strikes me as odd is why some people just don't seem to grow up.

But from a cod-psychology-evolutionary point of view, why should a straight male be scared if some men are gay - doesn't that simply improve their own chances?
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#42  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 11:38 am

Keep It Real wrote:After posting in another thread it seems to me there is a large environmental component in sexual orientation formation. Would not a Darwinian organism wish to avoid exposure to possibly transmissible homosexuality memes? I'm not homophobic but I think it is understandable. I don't know why I'm not homophobic. It seems understandable to me.

I don't know what the hell homophobic is supposed to mean. We should be clear before we try to cure it.

I react viscerally to seeing two men kiss. Not a pleasant feeling but certainly not intolerable. I do turn away from some sex scenes in GOT and I did close my eyes at Brokeback Mountain during part of the tent scene.

If that is what you are talking about then judging me for it, trying to cure me or change me, is the same as some christian ass trying to cure gays.

I suggest if homophobia bothers you then you are overall biophobic and perhaps becoming the bigot you hate.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#43  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 20, 2015 11:54 am

How about two women kissing? Or heavy lesbian sex scenes?

Would you close your eyes?
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#44  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:17 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:How about two women kissing? Or heavy lesbian sex scenes?

Would you close your eyes?

Doesn't bothering me at all to see women doing it.

There are some odd exceptions that have surprised me recently. The James Randi doc left me emotionally involved with him and his partner in much the way I would be with a man/women romantic movie. Another is the series Sense8. Didn't bother me at all.

Another odd thing is that I have become far less tolerant of hetero sex scenes in movies as I age. I never really liked them to being with but now they just bore me. But in a different way to seeing two men kiss. And I ain't no prude. If I want to watch porn I watch porn. I just get tired of seeing it in my movies.

Now in Sense8 the sex was not gratuitous. It belonged in the story. Maybe that's it.

Anyway. When I react thus I have a ready image of my father and his whiskers taken from when he used to play with me when I was six or younger. A very mixed bag of emotions. At some point that repelled me. Probably around eight years old. I think that perfectly natural.

Bitch about Biology is never going to get us anywhere. Understanding what biology does to our minds will. I stick to my argument that changing my innate homophobia is no different than trying to pray homosexuals straight. Let's not be hypocrites just because it's the trendy modern thing to do.

Another reaction of note to sexuality is running into a scantily dressed attractive women too young for me. I don't normally notice but I have a few friends who want to go all wolf and point them out. They AFFECT me and I resent it. It's like someone slapped me. I don't like being slapped and I don't even like being touched. Unless I invite it.

There is a complicated interplay of emotions around sexuality and I spend a lot of time introspecting emotions and the secondary images of the invoked imaginings. These are all quite natural and even seem to make a lot of sense when considering evolution. I think the guys that feel the need to harass gays are reacting to the same primal emotions that I simply feel without action. They construct a bigoted attitude and belief system to make sense of and hide the uncomfortable feelings. Guys like that are likely to take that 'being slapped' feeling I get with seeing attractive women and turn it into sexual harassment and violence.

Now here it is. IF you are trying to get us to suppress what we are actually feeling, ignore biological innate feelings by shaming those who have them, then the violence, misunderstanding, violation of human rights, and hatred will never be mended.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#45  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:21 pm

The idea that reacting negatively to homosexual displays of affection and sex because you are part-gay or afraid of being gay is so fucking ludicrous that I dare not comment further.

What a pile of shit we hoist when trying to be fair by forcing others to feel and behave as we would like.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#46  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:35 pm

Keep It Real wrote:This thread's gonna drop like Hiroshima.

It's a tough subject to keep the dick out of.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#47  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:37 pm

Keep It Real wrote:What do you think are the causes of non religious homophobia Mr Eshuis?

Reacting to emotions we do not fully understand. It's very simply religion. We are religious animals even when we are atheists. We think our minds are spirit thingies where it's all about reason. If we feel something we confuse it with thinking something.

Myself I get tried of trying to pouring words on misunderstanding to no effect. I am waiting for the mothership to return and bring me back home.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#48  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:40 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:What do you think are the causes of non religious homophobia Mr Eshuis?

I already mentioned that in my first post: a general fear instinct in humans of the alien, in this case manifesting as homophobia because the notion is so strange and incomprehensible to the homophobe that he instinctively dislikes it.
This is excluding of course self-hating homosexuals, which is mostly due to societal norms and pressure.

Really? You don't think it's normal biology for same sex conspec's to repel a little and opposites to attract?

But granted we have tribal customs to keep the people in the minorities oppressed and at the edges of the village. That's the fear of the alien I guess. Though I would not characterize my gay friends as alien without some regret.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#49  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:43 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:People have non-procreative intercourse every time they successfully use contraception.

It feels like procreative intercourse though.


My partner is sterilised. The sex does not feel procreative to me and has nothing about procreation to it. That would be a major turnoff for us both. Furthermore there is far more to sex than penis inserted into vagina and all of that stuff, has absolutely nothing to do with procreation.

Basically you're talking shite.

Sex feels procreative to me. Not sure what you are talking about. My whole life feels procreative.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#50  Postby tolman » Jun 20, 2015 12:44 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:I don't know what the hell homophobic is supposed to mean. We should be clear before we try to cure it.

I react viscerally to seeing two men kiss. Not a pleasant feeling but certainly not intolerable. I do turn away from some sex scenes in GOT and I did close my eyes at Brokeback Mountain during part of the tent scene.

If that is what you are talking about then judging me for it, trying to cure me or change me, is the same as some christian ass trying to cure gays.

I suggest if homophobia bothers you then you are overall biophobic and perhaps becoming the bigot you hate.

Personally, I do have an active aversion to imagining (let alone watching) two men having sex, but I could say something similar about imagining or watching all manner of straight couples having sex, including couples who were much older than me, underage, related to me, friends of mine, or particularly unattractive*.

And my reaction to that aversion is to avoid imagining such things, rather than chronically imagining them and then wallowing in feelings of disgust**.
It does seem to me that the latter of those two options is the one often chosen by 'homophobic' people.

(*and while I don't have the any real aversion to brief glimpses of 'acceptable' straight people having sex, I'm not hugely drawn to it, and my imagining sex really doesn't involve any males who aren't me)

(**though I did used to find a quick imagining of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher making the beast with two backs an excellent cure for any unwanted arousal)
Last edited by tolman on Jun 20, 2015 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#51  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:47 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
LoneWolfEburg wrote:
I don't know why I'm not homophobic. It seems understandable to me.

So, you yourself are a counter-example to your reasoning on how Darwinian organisms should feel. Furthermore, since a lot of people are not homophobic, you can't be said to represent an extremely unique anomaly in this regard. Consequently, it appears that your initial premises are flawed, and Darwinian organisms, for good or for ill, do not operate the way you assume them to - not always, at least.

That's the mystery in my mind - why everybody isn't homophobic. Maybe some people are so sure of their sexual orientation they refuse to believe they could catch teh gay. Perhaps we're right; perhaps not.

Got's research? Take a thousand heterosexual males and place them in a booth with intimate sex scenes between males and do some measuring. Then do the same with heterosex-scenes. Are you saying that the majority will react the same way to hetero scenes as they will homosex scenes?

Or are you saying that the only thing that has a reaction in the male body to a sex scene is his dick?
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#52  Postby tolman » Jun 20, 2015 12:49 pm

And as for Scot's post, when it comes to imagining or watching two or more (basically attractive) women kissing or having sex, there's nothing inherently aversive there for me - there's women, pleasure, and no male who isn't me.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#53  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:53 pm

tolman wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:I don't know what the hell homophobic is supposed to mean. We should be clear before we try to cure it.

I react viscerally to seeing two men kiss. Not a pleasant feeling but certainly not intolerable. I do turn away from some sex scenes in GOT and I did close my eyes at Brokeback Mountain during part of the tent scene.

If that is what you are talking about then judging me for it, trying to cure me or change me, is the same as some christian ass trying to cure gays.

I suggest if homophobia bothers you then you are overall biophobic and perhaps becoming the bigot you hate.

Personally, I do have an active aversion to imagining (let alone watching) two men having sex, but I could say something similar about imagining or watching all manner of straight couples having sex, including couples who were much older than me, underage, related to me, friends of mine, or particularly unattractive*.

And my reaction to that aversion is to avoid imagining such things, rather than imagining them and then wallowing in disgust**.
It does seem to me that the latter of those two options is the one often chosen by homophobic people.

(*and while I don't have the any real aversion to brief glimpses of 'acceptable' straight people having sex, I'm not hugely drawn to it, and my imagining sex really doesn't involve any males who aren't me)

(**though I did used to find a quick imagining of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher making the beast with two backs an excellent cure for any unwanted arousal)


Agreed. But you see the subtlety here don't you? We have taken 'homophobic' and made it about bigoted attitudes and beliefs. What word do we use for just having the feeling of not wanting to see sex that does not attract us?

There si the feeling or emotion and then there is the cultural fabric and then above all that there is the belief and opinion. The latter being where the word bigot came from in the first place.

But it seems to me that if we understand our biology we can do something about behavior when our biology rears it's often ugly head. If we pretend we don't have feelings of repulsion ever then we are more likely to find them coloring our beliefs.

Ina sense in the California kind of world it is still a sin to have certain feelings. Only in Hollywood that set of sinful feelings changes around about every twenty years.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#54  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 12:56 pm

tolman wrote:And as for Scot's post, when it comes to imagining or watching two or more (basically attractive) women kissing or having sex, there's nothing inherently aversive there for me - there's women, pleasure, and no male who isn't me.

Yup. And I have a suspicion that women do not react to females kissing as strongly as men react to males kissing. I am pretty sure that being male is a severe handicap. I think in fact we should be given disability payments for the condition. We have all kinds of confusing dick-emotions that we are not equipped to handle. :smoke:
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#55  Postby ElDiablo » Jun 20, 2015 1:54 pm

Is not giving a shit who someone else has sex with homophobia?
God is silly putty.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#56  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 20, 2015 2:07 pm

Unless it's my mom.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#57  Postby tolman » Jun 20, 2015 2:10 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:Agreed. But you see the subtlety here don't you? We have taken 'homophobic' and made it about bigoted attitudes and beliefs. What word do we use for just having the feeling of not wanting to see sex that does not attract us?

'Selective attraction to images of sex'.

It does seem that with regard to images of sex, for many people there may not be much of a middle ground between attraction and repulsion, but it's not clear that repulsion needs to come in particular strengths if its purpose is not to judge others but simply to define or reflect one's own preferences.
I really wouldn't want to visualise a morbidly obese straight couple having sex, a couple of 90-year-olds having sex, my parents having sex, or any of my gay friends having sex, so I refrain from such visualisations.

SpeedOfSound wrote:But it seems to me that if we understand our biology we can do something about behavior when our biology rears it's often ugly head. If we pretend we don't have feelings of repulsion ever then we are more likely to find them coloring our beliefs.

I do have feelings of repulsion, but I understand that they don't necessarily do any more than reflect my own orientation at this present time. Just as when I was 18 I wouldn't have found the idea of people of my current age having sex attractive, presumably if I live to 90 I'd feel differently about thinking of 90-year-old naked women.

SpeedOfSound wrote:In a sense in the California kind of world it is still a sin to have certain feelings. Only in Hollywood that set of sinful feelings changes around about every twenty years.

There's a difference between having personal feelings and thinking that everyone else should share one's own feelings.
There's also a huge difference between finding thoughts of some kinds of sex personally unattractive and therefore not thinking about them and finding them unattractive but feeling compelled to think and judge and talk about them to the detriment of others and the seeming advantage of no-one.

The odd thing about the classic homophobe is that presumably many of them would find the thought of elderly people having sex unattractive yet they would be entirely capable of talking to an elderly couple who were holding hands without having to continually imagine hem having sex.

But possibly that's a self-sustaining thing?
The more that some people feel compelled to talk about gay sex as if it was all that gay men ever did, the harder it may be for other people to simply not think about it?
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#58  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 20, 2015 2:36 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
tolman wrote:And as for Scot's post, when it comes to imagining or watching two or more (basically attractive) women kissing or having sex, there's nothing inherently aversive there for me - there's women, pleasure, and no male who isn't me.

Yup. And I have a suspicion that women do not react to females kissing as strongly as men react to males kissing. I am pretty sure that being male is a severe handicap. I think in fact we should be given disability payments for the condition. We have all kinds of confusing dick-emotions that we are not equipped to handle. :smoke:


In Ireland (good catholic country at the time) for years two women could live together without any comment.
If two men tried that :shock: :shock:

For a strange reason lesbianism seems to have been more acceptable.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#59  Postby tolman » Jun 20, 2015 2:42 pm

But possibly in contemporary attitudes, sex was really something men did to women, so two women alone couldn't possibly be getting up to much mischief beyond the odd cuddle.
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Re: Understanding Homophobia

#60  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 20, 2015 2:47 pm

tolman wrote:But possibly in contemporary attitudes, sex was really something men did to women, so two women alone couldn't possibly be getting up to much mischief beyond the odd cuddle.


I agree but still how sex was then considered. It was not for enjoyment anyway.
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