Violence and Sexuality

Is there a relationship?

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#21  Postby zulumoose » May 19, 2017 1:11 pm

the more violently the female resists, the more driven to pursue mating the male becomes.


I thought marriage was an exclusively human practise.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#22  Postby scott1328 » May 19, 2017 10:09 pm

KiR,
When you give up your trite overgeneralizations, and tired sterotypes?
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#23  Postby surreptitious57 » May 19, 2017 10:13 pm

Some females will be attracted to alpha males by simple virtue of them being alpha. But if a female wants to settle down an alpha may not be the most ideal choice since he will be more likely to be a player and therefore unsuitable partner material
So she may therefore choose a beta with superior nurturing qualities. If on the other hand she does not want to settle down then she may be more attracted to alpha men and specifically violent sexy ones. It all depends upon the woman in question Some are attracted to violent sexy alpha men while some are not. They do not all think the same any more than all men do
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#24  Postby Calilasseia » May 20, 2017 12:41 am

For that matter, there's the little matter of Cichlid fish. In particular, Rift Lake Cichlids.

Numerous species of Rift Lake Cichlid exhibit an interesting phenomenon, arising from the fact that several of them are maternal mouthbrooders. The female is left quite literally holding the babies, as it were, which spend the first 4 weeks or so of their life as fry using the mother's mouth as a protective retreat.

In these Cichlids, there are prominently marked "alpha males", with bright colouration and varying degrees of aggressive temperament allied to their territorial behaviour. But among the less colourful fish, are males exhibiting what would appear at first sight to be female colouration, partly to deflect attacks from the "alpha males", and partly so that they can engage in surreptitious matings with the females. A particularly extreme case is provided by Melanochromis chipokae, which exhibits hyperdominance in an aquarium setting because it's so fulminatingly bellicose in confined spaces. In the wild, where it has access to millions of gallons of water and large stretches of rock-strewn substrate, it's generally less of a berserker temperament wise, but it'll still go ballistic if subject to serious territorial challenge.

Melanochromis chipokae males are usually deep blue, with the females a sort of golden yellow colour, both sexes adorned with horizontal stripes. Juveniles tend to exhibit a muted version of the female's colouration, and the largest male in a collection of juveniles will turn deep blue as sexual maturity approaches, with a very pronounced change in behaviour in an aquarium setting, becoming a roving terrorist toward others of its own species and even larger fishes of some other species, if they encroach upon its chosen territory. The other males will mostly stay yellow, but that won't stop them mating with the females if opportunity arises, frequently taking advantage of caves in the rock decor to engage in surreptitious breeding out of sight of the psychopath "alpha male".

Moving on to biparental substrate spawning Cichlids, such as many of the Central American species, what's more important to the female, is a male who will stick around and forge a long term partnership. An extreme example is provided by Neetroplus nematopus, which exhibits stark differences in colouration between non-breeding and breeding individuals. The moment a pair of fish of this species decides it's time to couple up and start raising fry, it's as if a switch has been thrown in their heads, and they too become serious hardcore bruisers. However, whilst many Central American Cichlids adopt the "convoy escort" strategy for protecting fry, swimming alongside the fry like a pair of escorting battleships waiting to deal with threats, Neetroplus nematopus exhibits a different strategy, keeping its fry bedded down in a cave, then going out on coordinated "search and destroy" missions to enforce a "no swim zone" for other fish. The male will launch a head on attack at an opponent, in some cases an opponent several times larger than himself, and while said opponent is distracted, the female then moves in to strike at the chosen target's underside.

Neetroplus nematopus is so effective at this strategy, that it can keep several big Cichlids from other Genera in an aquarium backed away from the chosen fry rearing territory, and the other Cichlids will stay out of reach of the boundary line rather than face another attack from these miniature terrors. Once the "no swim zone" is enforced, and the other fish have learned that these little demons will react instantly to any territorial incursion with a full-bore DefCon 1 response, the parents then lead the fry out on guided feeding missions, tucking them back in the cave when it's time to re-establish the "line of death" that other fish cross at their peril.

Consequently, in the case of Neetroplus nematopus, males that direct their aggression toward territorial enemies of the family, whilst being suitably diligent in the parental role, are the ones that are prized amongst the females, which will select a partner according to [1] how well he shares fry caring duties, and [2] how well he co-ordinates attacks with the female on territorial enemies. Indeed, in an aquarium setting, giving these fish targets for destruction, such as water beetles that would otherwise pose a predation threat to the fry, gives the parents the satisfaction of directing their "search and destroy" instincts toward a suitable target, and providing them with a nice crunchy meal into the bargain.

Then you have fish in which the male assumes the primary fry care role, such as Betta splendens, the Siamese Fighting Fish. Males are violently territorial, and completely intolerant of each other once past the juvenile stage, but in this species (and several other Labyrinth Fishes), the males are the ones that build the bubble nests in which the eggs will be deposited, and tend the fry, which provides these fishes with a pretty strong paternity guarantee. Effective fry rearers are again the males that are of most value to the females, and various behaviours on the part of the male have emerged as signals to this effect.

Meanwhile, returning to Cichlids, some species thereof are associated with documented instances of foster parenting in the literature.

As a corollary, if we can see this range of behaviours in fish, the "alpha male" stereotype is likely to be of relatively little importance in humans on a global scale.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#25  Postby james1v » May 20, 2017 2:08 am

Hormones, Can and does create killers'.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#26  Postby Fallible » May 20, 2017 6:18 am

Keep It Real wrote:I'm not so sure...


Why not? I've no desire to be pissed on, but apparently others enjoy that kind of thing.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#27  Postby Fallible » May 20, 2017 6:25 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Nicko wrote:What about if I've been an extremely naughty boy and need a powerful, confident woman to give me a well deserved spanking?

How does that fit into your little theory, KIR?


It doesn't get you laid, unless your discretion was sleeping around that is...you're just reinforcing my point really that women want violent/naughty men...and that you're happy to be that.


I don't think you really have a point. What I think you have to do is get rid of the idea that women are a single homogenous lump who all like the same thing. I also think that this 'theory' of yours is actually just how you wish things to be. Why else would you not accept evidence from actual women that is contrary to your belief?
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#28  Postby Keep It Real » May 20, 2017 6:43 am

Oh trust me it's not how I wish things to be - If only nice guys turned most women on, but they don't in general, as far as I have observed. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but I was talking about the general pattern....like saying most people don't enjoy water sports.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#29  Postby Cito di Pense » May 20, 2017 7:00 am

Keep It Real wrote:Oh trust me it's not how I wish things to be - If only nice guys turned most women on, but they don't in general, as far as I have observed. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but I was talking about the general pattern....like saying most people don't enjoy water sports.


It would appear you'd consider yourself on the outside looking in. Whether you're talking about actual relations between men and women, or just the way they are depicted in the media you pay attention to, you're chasing after another supremely dumb idea, which is that an image is distorted with respect to reality. Hang onto that metaphysics, KIR, it's a gold mine.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#30  Postby Fallible » May 20, 2017 7:08 am

Keep It Real wrote:Oh trust me it's not how I wish things to be - If only nice guys turned most women on, but they don't in general, as far as I have observed. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but I was talking about the general pattern....like saying most people don't enjoy water sports.


I don't think you can generalise in this area, unless you have some rigorous scientific studies you're basing your opinion on. Otherwise you just have anecdote and opinion, which does indeed seem to be all you have, in the form of what you surmise from specific styles of music, and some thoughts about chimps. While you are entitled to your views, I find this to be an unacceptably flimsy level of evidence on which to form hard opinions about half of the world's population. The reason I said that what you describe is probably what you wish to be is because you blew off first-hand evidence which contradicts your belief. Why would you do this unless you were invested in that belief? I have more first-hand evidence for you; I have no interest in any man (or anyone) who shows a propensity to violence. Rather than signifying strength, to me, it carries rather a strong image of a knuckle dragging fool who can't think of a better way to surmount his difficulties. I am not attracted to unresourceful idiots. You may wish to brush this off as an exception to a general rule because rap music. I may wish to continue thinking that this has more to do with personal sensibilities than any fact.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#31  Postby Keep It Real » May 20, 2017 7:23 am

Then there's all the violence in films - it's ubiquitous. There's also the rise of MMA, boxing, kick boxing etc....people just get off on violence - why else would it be so prevalent in the culture? What's the appeal? All this talk about what women find appealing in men is something of a distraction from the purpose of this thread - it's more about the overriding association between violence and sexuality. I think we like watching violence (in general) because it reminds us of the struggle for sexual supremacy. Stereotypically men like violence more than women do, presumably because they're more genetically invested in participating in the battle for sexual supremacy, but some women like it too, possibly because they like to be close to the hotbed of competition. It's all a tragedy of evolution. Nature is red in tooth and claw.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#32  Postby Fallible » May 20, 2017 7:38 am

Ok, that's what you think. I don't think that. If I am provided with evidence, I will alter my views accordingly. You seem content to hold an opinion based on anecdote and inference, and content to dismiss anything to the contrary as an exception to a 'rule' which you have not yet shown to exist.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#33  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 20, 2017 7:40 am

Keep It Real wrote:Oh trust me it's not how I wish things to be - If only nice guys turned most women on, but they don't in general, as far as I have observed. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but I was talking about the general pattern....like saying most people don't enjoy water sports.

KIR, your experience consists of less than 0,000001% (probably even less) of the total human population.
That is not a sound sample to base conclusion on.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#34  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » May 20, 2017 7:43 am

I don't think pee play is remotely uncommon.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#35  Postby Keep It Real » May 20, 2017 8:23 am

Fallible wrote:Ok, that's what you think. I don't think that. If I am provided with evidence, I will alter my views accordingly. You seem content to hold an opinion based on anecdote and inference, and content to dismiss anything to the contrary as an exception to a 'rule' which you have not yet shown to exist.


Here's some evidence that men like violence more than women do.

Evidence that men and women responded to the violence differently was demonstrated by men' experiencing greater positive feelings, entertainment, and curiosity in relation to the violent film, whereas women reported more disgust, boredom, anger, and experienced greater startle in relation to the violent scenes portrayed in the film.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#36  Postby surreptitious57 » May 20, 2017 8:30 am

KIR you have extrapolated from a very narrow demographic based upon your own limited observation and generalised it to an entire gender by treating it as a single homogeneous entity. You assume causation between sex and violence also based upon your limited observation and popular culture. And you have also failed to provide any actual evidence to support your rather obvious agenda. Finally you are not accepting any of the legitimate criticisms of your flawed methodology from anyone here

If you are serious about this subject you need to significantly narrow its scope and provide either sound reasoning or actual evidence for any truth claims you make. Avoid using anecdote as a substitute for data. And stop using fictionalised popular culture as a substitute for actual evidence. Assume correlation between sex and violence for some men but not all. You do all that and you will then have the making of an interesting thread
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#37  Postby Fallible » May 20, 2017 8:35 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Fallible wrote:Ok, that's what you think. I don't think that. If I am provided with evidence, I will alter my views accordingly. You seem content to hold an opinion based on anecdote and inference, and content to dismiss anything to the contrary as an exception to a 'rule' which you have not yet shown to exist.


Here's some evidence that men like violence more than women do.

Evidence that men and women responded to the violence differently was demonstrated by men' experiencing greater positive feelings, entertainment, and curiosity in relation to the violent film, whereas women reported more disgust, boredom, anger, and experienced greater startle in relation to the violent scenes portrayed in the film.


Which has nothing to do with a link between violence and sexuality, or whether women prefer men who might be violent. In fact it seem to go some way to refuting that second claim.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#38  Postby Keep It Real » May 20, 2017 8:47 am

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3317472?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

This study addresses the causes of fighting among hunter-gatherers, whose way of life represents 99.5 percent of human history. Focusing on somatic and reproductive causes in Part I and on such diverse causes as dominance, revenge, the "security dilemma," and "pugnacity" in Part II, the study seeks to show how all these motives, rather than being separate, come together in an integrated motivational complex, shaped by the logic of evolution and natural selection.


I remember watching a documentary on amazonian tribes, where it was proven that those men who killed the most had the most wives and children. Violence is a behavioral adaptation to facilitate sexual reproduction.
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#39  Postby surreptitious57 » May 20, 2017 9:03 am

Men in general will like violence more than women. The reason for this is because they naturally produce more testosterone than women which increases their aggression and sex drive. Although aggression it should be noted can be channelled both positively [ exercise ] or negatively [ violence ] And just as women produce testosterone in significantly smaller quantities than men then men equally produce oestrogen in significantly smaller quantities than women. An interesting aside here is during pregnancy a woman will produce an excess of oestrogen in order to boost the immune system of the foetus. Which
will at that stage be female. Regardless of whether it is born a boy or a girl. And this is the reason why men have nipples
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Re: Violence and Sexuality

#40  Postby surreptitious57 » May 20, 2017 9:12 am

Keep It Real wrote:
I remember watching a documentary on amazonian tribes where it was proven that those men who killed the
most had the most wives and children. Violence is a behavioral adaptation to facilitate sexual reproduction

Violence is not accepted in the West as a means of facilitating sexual reproduction
Men do not have to become killers or murderers in order to have the most women
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