What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

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What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#1  Postby Keep It Real » May 06, 2016 2:31 pm

So an Australian twin study showed there is approximately a 20% concordance for monozygotic twins and homosexuality. Clearly the environment plays a large role in the development of sexual orientation. What factors are at play?
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#2  Postby Keep It Real » May 06, 2016 3:09 pm

Researchers have provided evidence that gay men report having had less loving and more rejecting fathers, and closer relationships with their mothers, than non-gay men.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_and_sexual_orientation
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#3  Postby felltoearth » May 06, 2016 3:10 pm

What's your point?
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#4  Postby Keep It Real » May 06, 2016 3:13 pm

It's interesting.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#5  Postby felltoearth » May 06, 2016 3:20 pm

Keep It Real wrote:It's interesting.


Why?
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#6  Postby Keep It Real » May 06, 2016 3:21 pm

Because it's shrouded in mystery.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#7  Postby ScholasticSpastic » May 06, 2016 3:25 pm

Keep It Real wrote:So an Australian twin study showed there is approximately a 20% concordance for monozygotic twins and homosexuality. Clearly the environment plays a large role in the development of sexual orientation. What factors are at play?

It's not clear, though. The womb is an environment, and twins share it. Environmental influences should, therefor, be expected to increase twin concordance and thereby confound any conclusions we can draw about the genetic influences for homosexuality based upon concordance data. It's a riddle, wrapped in an enigma, pressing on a bladder.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#8  Postby Keep It Real » May 06, 2016 3:53 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:So an Australian twin study showed there is approximately a 20% concordance for monozygotic twins and homosexuality. Clearly the environment plays a large role in the development of sexual orientation. What factors are at play?

It's not clear, though. The womb is an environment, and twins share it. Environmental influences should, therefor, be expected to increase twin concordance and thereby confound any conclusions we can draw about the genetic influences for homosexuality based upon concordance data. It's a riddle, wrapped in an enigma, pressing on a bladder.


I was more thinking of the post natal environment. 20% - and that includes all the shared environmental influences one would expect with twins.....something happens, and we don't yet know what it is! Intriguing!
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#9  Postby NineBerry » May 06, 2016 3:58 pm

Keep It Real wrote:So an Australian twin study showed there is approximately a 20% concordance for monozygotic twins and homosexuality. Clearly the environment plays a large role in the development of sexual orientation. What factors are at play?


Have a link to the study?
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#10  Postby Keep It Real » May 06, 2016 4:05 pm

In 2000 Bailey, Dunne and Martin studied a larger sample of 4,901 Australian twins but reported less than half the level of concordance.[5] They found 20% concordance in the male identical or MZ twins and 24% concordance for the female identical or MZ twins. Self reported zygosity, sexual attraction, fantasy and behaviours were assessed by questionnaire and zygosity was serologically checked when in doubt.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/78/3/524/ - Abstract.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#11  Postby crank » May 06, 2016 7:18 pm

Have they eliminated the possibility of Lamarckian inheritance?
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#12  Postby igorfrankensteen » May 06, 2016 10:17 pm

Here's an article specifically refuting the primary claim of this thread:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... identical/

You really shouldn't attempt to deduce anything so dramatic as that differences between "identical" twins PROVES that environment is 100% responsible for differences, before you first ask the more logical question.

How genetically identical are "identical twins," exactly?

As we see in that article, the answer is, not all that identical.

Now that we can directly map DNA, we can now see that 100% of all twin-based studies done to date, are functionally meaningless, unless the DNA of all subjects was preserved, and is now inspected, to remove all NON-identical "identical twins" from the results.

Back to the propaganda drawing board.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#13  Postby Keep It Real » May 06, 2016 10:50 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:Here's an article specifically refuting the primary claim of this thread:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... identical/

You really shouldn't attempt to deduce anything so dramatic as that differences between "identical" twins PROVES that environment is 100% responsible for differences, before you first ask the more logical question.

How genetically identical are "identical twins," exactly?

As we see in that article, the answer is, not all that identical.

Now that we can directly map DNA, we can now see that 100% of all twin-based studies done to date, are functionally meaningless, unless the DNA of all subjects was preserved, and is now inspected, to remove all NON-identical "identical twins" from the results.

Back to the propaganda drawing board.


Tiny differences occur. Big deal. The article cited is nothing more than headline grabbing propaganda. Hypocritical much.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#14  Postby igorfrankensteen » May 07, 2016 12:16 am

"Headline grabbing propaganda" in this case, otherwise known as "inconvenient facts the thread starter wants to ignore."
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#15  Postby Keep It Real » May 07, 2016 12:25 am

igorfrankensteen wrote:"Headline grabbing propaganda" in this case, otherwise known as "inconvenient facts the thread starter wants to ignore."


Tiny differences. How they could account for the 20% concordance figure is....fanciful, to put it lightly. I seek the truth whereas you, apparently, seek maintenance of the statue quo: that homosexuality is derived from genetics. I don't care about the social ramifications, I just want the truth. We have to see, we have to know.

Bearman and Brückner (2002) criticized early studies concentrating on small, select samples[7] and non-representative selection of their subjects.[8] They studied 289 pairs of identical twins (monozygotic or from one fertilized egg) and 495 pairs of fraternal twins (dizygotic or from two fertilized eggs) and found concordance rates for same-sex attraction of only 7.7% for male identical twins and 5.3% for females, a pattern which they say "does not suggest genetic influence independent of social context."[7]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#16  Postby felltoearth » May 07, 2016 1:03 am

igorfrankensteen wrote:"Headline grabbing propaganda" in this case, otherwise known as "inconvenient facts the thread starter wants to ignore."


He had to be asked to post the article reference. Seems like there's some other truth he wants to explore.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#17  Postby laklak » May 07, 2016 2:36 pm

Overexposure to Liza Minnelli and Cher albums at a formative age.
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#18  Postby felltoearth » May 07, 2016 3:02 pm

laklak wrote:Overexposure to Liza Minnelli and Cher albums at a formative age.


Correlation isn't causation :)
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#19  Postby igorfrankensteen » May 07, 2016 4:01 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
igorfrankensteen wrote:"Headline grabbing propaganda" in this case, otherwise known as "inconvenient facts the thread starter wants to ignore."


Tiny differences. How they could account for the 20% concordance figure is....fanciful, to put it lightly. I seek the truth whereas you, apparently, seek maintenance of the statue quo: that homosexuality is derived from genetics. I don't care about the social ramifications, I just want the truth. We have to see, we have to know.

Bearman and Brückner (2002) criticized early studies concentrating on small, select samples[7] and non-representative selection of their subjects.[8] They studied 289 pairs of identical twins (monozygotic or from one fertilized egg) and 495 pairs of fraternal twins (dizygotic or from two fertilized eggs) and found concordance rates for same-sex attraction of only 7.7% for male identical twins and 5.3% for females, a pattern which they say "does not suggest genetic influence independent of social context."[7]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation


Still insisting on ignoring facts, I see.

By the way, something else that both you and your sources are entirely ignoring, is the exact definition of homosexuality involved with the "studies." "Social context" is involved with that, too.

Not to mention, that the exact details of ANY person's sexuality are complex. No two are alike, like snowflakes.

And no, I'm not pursuing an agenda to claim that ALL exhibitions of sexuality of any kind are produced by DNA. I am, however, insistent that claims made either way, actually take ALL the pertinent facts into account, which none of your own cited sources do .
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Re: What environmental factors influence sexual orientation?

#20  Postby tuco » May 07, 2016 4:59 pm

Will there be some kind of consensus after the bickering or can I just forget about this thread? Seriously. I am interested in consensus.
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