Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

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Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#1  Postby jay100 » Oct 06, 2011 5:43 am

The late scientist, Carl Sagan, in his book, Cosmos asserts that the Dance of Nataraja (Tandava) signifies the cycle of evolution and destruction of the cosmic universe (Big Bang Theory).

It is the clearest image of the activity of God which any art or religion can boast of." Modern physics has shown that the rhythm of creation and destruction is not only manifest in the turn of the seasons and in the birth and death of all living creatures, but also the very essence of inorganic matter.


For modern physicists, then, Shiva's dance is the dance of subatomic matter. Hundreds of years ago, Indian artist created visual images of dancing Shiva's in a beautiful series of bronzes. Today, physicist have used the most advanced technology to portray the pattern of the cosmic dance. Thus, the metaphor of the cosmic dance unifies, ancient religious art and modern physics. The Hindus, according to Monier-Williams, were Spinozists more than 2,000 years before the advent of Spinoza, and Darwinians many centuries before Darwin and Evolutionists many centuries before the doctrine of Evolution was accepted by scientists of the present age.

"The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long. Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scales still."

Source: Cosmos - By Carl Sagan, Random House ISBN 0375508325 p. 213 -214 :clap:
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#2  Postby cavarka9 » Oct 06, 2011 6:12 am

and that gets you off!. what about NDM1 which is spreading through due to lack of basic organization of handling anti-biotics and most probably evolved due to a lack of sewage system.
Get those right first. then talk of metaphors
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#3  Postby Fenrir » Oct 06, 2011 6:37 am

The OP is an exact copy of that found here, and the first paragraph exists as written in numerous other places. Talk about recurring cycles. :nono:
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#4  Postby The_Metatron » Oct 06, 2011 6:42 am

Do you think Carl Sagan indorsed Hinduism?
My blog, Skepdick.eu

"If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another." - Carl Sagan
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#5  Postby cavarka9 » Oct 06, 2011 6:48 am

Fenrir wrote:The OP is an exact copy of that found here, and the first paragraph exists as written in numerous other places. Talk about recurring cycles. :nono:


subash kak is an idiot who claims to have solved the twin paradox from relativity, except there isnt anything to solve. also found codes from the vedas, the bullshit they claim is unbelievable and it is accepted and defended by sociologists of some kinds.

absolute nonsense. On one hand there are things to be done today, here and now and these people are happy, happy with tears of joy in their eyes that their ancestors 2000 years ago, who believed in drinking cows urine and still do now have come up with metaphors that seemingly allude to discoveries backed by evidence and a much better model of knowledge.

those people 2000 yrs ago can be excused for they knew less, but what of today's generation when they ought to know better.
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#6  Postby Bribase » Oct 06, 2011 7:45 am

Since what we know currently about our universe is that we will not undergo "an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths." your assertion (and Carl's, though I'm sure he would accept that) is false.

And my dance seems a bit like does not amount to my dance is supernaturally prescient of. Nor does the fact that your religion measures the universe in billions of years make it the correct number of billions of years.
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#7  Postby Blip » Oct 06, 2011 8:43 am


!
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Jay100, your post here is copied from the entry on Carl Sagan here without attribution.

You’re advised to have a look at the Forum Users’ Agreement, specifically section 1.2m, which prohibits plagiarism, and ensure that you adhere to it in future please.

Any comments on this modnote or moderation should not be made in the thread as they will be considered off topic. You may PM me, a global or a senior moderator or you may raise a thread in feedback if you so wish
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#8  Postby jay100 » Oct 06, 2011 10:45 am

Fenrir wrote:The OP is an exact copy of that found here, and the first paragraph exists as written in numerous other places. Talk about recurring cycles. :nono:


Hey !

I forgot to add the source attribution
! thanks Blip for pointing it out..

it was plagiarism.. i had clearly mentioned the source.. of the book.. but if u want a web link.. read this:

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Advanced_Concepts.htm
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#9  Postby jay100 » Oct 06, 2011 10:49 am

cavarka9 wrote:
Fenrir wrote:The OP is an exact copy of that found here, and the first paragraph exists as written in numerous other places. Talk about recurring cycles. :nono:


subash kak is an idiot who claims to have solved the twin paradox from relativity, except there isnt anything to solve. also found codes from the vedas, the bullshit they claim is unbelievable and it is accepted and defended by sociologists of some kinds.

absolute nonsense. On one hand there are things to be done today, here and now and these people are happy, happy with tears of joy in their eyes that their ancestors 2000 years ago, who believed in drinking cows urine and still do now have come up with metaphors that seemingly allude to discoveries backed by evidence and a much better model of knowledge.

those people 2000 yrs ago can be excused for they knew less, but what of today's generation when they ought to know better.


I disagree the fact that people 2000 years ago knew less.. !!! thats an rude statement of an ignorant person !..

have u ever been to historical places especially in India?
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#10  Postby Scar » Oct 06, 2011 10:58 am

jay100 wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:
Fenrir wrote:The OP is an exact copy of that found here, and the first paragraph exists as written in numerous other places. Talk about recurring cycles. :nono:


subash kak is an idiot who claims to have solved the twin paradox from relativity, except there isnt anything to solve. also found codes from the vedas, the bullshit they claim is unbelievable and it is accepted and defended by sociologists of some kinds.

absolute nonsense. On one hand there are things to be done today, here and now and these people are happy, happy with tears of joy in their eyes that their ancestors 2000 years ago, who believed in drinking cows urine and still do now have come up with metaphors that seemingly allude to discoveries backed by evidence and a much better model of knowledge.

those people 2000 yrs ago can be excused for they knew less, but what of today's generation when they ought to know better.

I disagree the fact that people 2000 years ago knew less.. !!! thats an rude statement of an ignorant person !..

have u ever been to historical places especially in India?


Yes. Looked a lot like places built by people who knew less than we do today. Also, no computers anywhere around.


Edit: Fixed messed up quoting.
Last edited by Scar on Oct 06, 2011 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#11  Postby Bribase » Oct 06, 2011 11:08 am

jay100 wrote:
I disagree the fact that people 2000 years ago knew less.. !!! thats an rude statement of an ignorant person !..

have u ever been to historical places especially in India?


Unfortunately cavarka9's statement is a factual one. People alive now have a greater understanding of the world around them than in any other age. Never before has there been a better understanding of the subatomic to the cosmic and never before have there been better tools available to disseminate to everyone our understanding of it.

This difference between then and now is why your OP is simply a post hoc rationalisation of science that you have misunderstood enough that it vaguely fits with your favourite religion.
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#12  Postby cavarka9 » Oct 06, 2011 11:17 am

Bribase wrote:
jay100 wrote:
I disagree the fact that people 2000 years ago knew less.. !!! thats an rude statement of an ignorant person !..

have u ever been to historical places especially in India?


Unfortunately cavarka9's statement is a factual one. People alive now have a greater understanding of the world around them than in any other age. Never before has there been a better understanding of the subatomic to the cosmic and never before have there been better tools available to disseminate to everyone our understanding of it.

This difference between then and now is why your OP is simply a post hoc rationalisation of science that you have misunderstood enough that it vaguely fits with your favourite religion.


yes, have you considered what actually is rude in what i said?. I was rude to your religion and not to you, those ancestors of yours are m ancestors of mine too. Infact for the most part of 1500yrs a certain group believed in atomism only to see the victory of those who religious and believed in souls and gods. they used to question " if everthing were atoms, then where does karma come from or where does soul exist". "the shape of ancient thought" by thomas mcevilley
So, I would infact claim that given a choice to those thinkers they would want to have known much that we do and perhaps the might be willing to give up their life just to know more.
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#13  Postby trubble76 » Oct 06, 2011 11:28 am

Many religions try simialr tactics. Funny how science manages to prove beyond doubt that <insert favourite religion here> is correct.
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#14  Postby Nebogipfel » Oct 06, 2011 2:03 pm

Well, in my copy of Cosmos, the complete quote runs thus:


The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes and immense, indeed, an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, no doubt by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scales still.


(emphasis mine)
p258, 1981 hardback edition (unfortunately I can't find the ISBN number). In any case, it's in the chapter Edge of Forever.

As far as I can recall, the "no doubt" phrase is also what he says in the TV episode. But it's clear from the context of the rest of the chapter Sagan is not endorsing Hinduism as actually true

I'm sure jay100's omission of this phrase was accidental. Probably a copy-and-paste error.

(edited for typos)
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
-- Carl Sagan
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#15  Postby Nebogipfel » Oct 06, 2011 2:08 pm

jay100 wrote:
it was plagiarism.. i had clearly mentioned the source.. of the book.. but if u want a web link.. read this:

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Advanced_Concepts.htm


Hinduism has clearly also developed quote mining technology comparable to that of Christianity. jay100, you should not take everything you read on the internet at face value. Particularly where "validating" a particular religion is concerned.
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
-- Carl Sagan
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#16  Postby Nebogipfel » Oct 06, 2011 2:24 pm

Fenrir wrote:The OP is an exact copy of that found here, and the first paragraph exists as written in numerous other places. Talk about recurring cycles. :nono:


So - religious apologist dishonestly quotemines famous scientist to make look as if scientist is endorsing apologist's religion.

In other news:
Pope "has links" to Roman Catholocism...
Ayatollah possessed "substantial quantities" of facial hair...
Faecal matter in arboreal areas "of ursine origin", claims scientists...
:coffee:
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
-- Carl Sagan
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#17  Postby cavarka9 » Oct 06, 2011 3:03 pm

quote mining is common, there is also a benign quote mining, by authors or writer who start of a chapter with a quote irrespective of context, when the quote itself seems to making a profound statement and would infact be better off be quoted independently than be quoted in context and have its value lowered.
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#18  Postby Bribase » Oct 06, 2011 3:52 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:
Fenrir wrote:The OP is an exact copy of that found here, and the first paragraph exists as written in numerous other places. Talk about recurring cycles. :nono:


So - religious apologist dishonestly quotemines famous scientist to make look as if scientist is endorsing apologist's religion.

In other news:
Pope "has links" to Roman Catholocism...
Ayatollah possessed "substantial quantities" of facial hair...
Faecal matter in arboreal areas "of ursine origin", claims scientists...
:coffee:


:lol:
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Re: Carl Sagan on Hinduism - Validated

#19  Postby John P. M. » Oct 06, 2011 5:29 pm

Well, I for one welcome a bit of apologetics from other than the usual suspects. Kinda refreshing to see that no matter the religion, it was right all along. Always in convoluted, retrofitted hindsight, but still.
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