Dead Sea Scrolls

duvduv · #1 by **duvduv** » Jul 23, 2015 1:50 pm

There is so much to question about the DSS. But I was surprised to read that the carbon dating places the parchments within a spread of two to three hundred years, not taking into account that the parchments may have been older than the writing.
Then there is the question of the motives of the sectarian authors, and what they were taking seriously or not so seriously in their various writings. And why such disparate sects and religious artifacts were stored together in caves? And how much can be questioned about the original Catholic interpretations of the texts as opposed to interpretation based on a traditional Jewish perspective.

RealityRules · #2 by **RealityRules** » Jul 24, 2015 5:24 am

Maybe start here?

http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/?locale=en_US

and the introduction -

http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/introduction

RealityRules · #3 by **RealityRules** » Jul 24, 2015 5:28 am

The hypothesis that John the Baptizer had a close association with the Qumranities at one point in his life and thus inherited many of their ideas and practices has been shown,while still historical speculation, to be reasonable historical speculation given the evidence that we have. The Dead Sea Scrolls have given us a great framework for understanding the behavior and practices of John the Baptizer and thus have illuminated just one more aspect of early Christian origins.

John the Baptizer and the Dead Sea Scrolls
Caleb Upton
RLG-326-H1
Prof. Judith Newman
April 12th, 2012

duvduv · #4 by **duvduv** » Jul 24, 2015 6:09 am

Except there is no evidence for the existence of anyone called John the Baptizer outside of Church claims anyway. The existence of such a person is mentioned nowhere in any text of the new Jewish religion at all in the first century.

RealityRules · #5 by **RealityRules** » Jul 24, 2015 8:36 am

.
John the Baptist is mentioned in Josephus - Antiquities 18.116-119 (Whiston’s chapter 18.5.2)

and The Authenticity of John the Baptist in Josephus has recently been discussed

duvduv · #6 by **duvduv** » Jul 24, 2015 10:40 am

Josephus's writings were in the possession of the church not the Jews. For that matter although the traditional Jewish texts mention Saducees and Samaritans as large sects, they never mention so much as a word about "Essenes." So much for one of the so-called major "philosophies."

duvduv · #7 by **duvduv** » Jul 24, 2015 11:37 am

It is entirely plausible that whoever placed the variety of scrolls and tfillin in the caves were transporting them from one location to another, and were forced to deposit them in the caves along the way.There would be no other rationale for discarding them far away in a geniza cave. Rabbinic law specifies storing discarded religious books in clay vessels, but discarding them so far out wouldn't make sense unless they were being transferred elsewhere and got held up.

Spearthrower · #8 by **Spearthrower** » Jul 24, 2015 12:02 pm

duvduv wrote:It is entirely plausible that whoever placed the variety of scrolls and tfillin in the caves were transporting them from one location to another, and were forced to deposit them in the caves along the way.There would be no other rationale for discarding them far away in a geniza cave. Rabbinic law specifies storing discarded religious books in clay vessels, but discarding them so far out wouldn't make sense unless they were being transferred elsewhere and got held up.

There are many speculative possibilities I can come up with as to why they'd be put in that cave, but I don't know as it's worth speculating about possibilities without the chance of evidence to corroborate them.

duvduv · #9 by **duvduv** » Jul 24, 2015 12:11 pm

Yes, that's true. But much of analysis of historical events is based on process of elimination and inferences based on what is known. In this case it isn't the traditional interpretation of the Catholic priests that is the most likely possibility.

Spearthrower · **#10** by **Spearthrower** » Jul 24, 2015 2:32 pm

duvduv wrote:Yes, that's true. But much of analysis of historical events is based on process of elimination and inferences based on what is known. In this case it isn't the traditional interpretation of the Catholic priests that is the most likely possibility.

I do accept that, and didn't mean that one can never speculate. The idea with speculating, I would say, is to do something akin to prediction making in scientific methodology - by shaping hypotheses towards plausible positions, one can then potentially test those hypotheses via research or evidence.

However, when it comes to what some people may or may not have done - the actions of a particular group of people at a particular time and place, and what motivated them, it becomes increasingly likely that no evidence will be found aside from a lucky surviving 2nd hand account - a report of it. Of course, that does happen, and you never know - stranger things have happened at sea! :grin:

But I see no way we could potentially falsify wrong ideas which happen to be speculatively plausible but, for all practicality, outside of any possibility of being evidenced.

laklak · **#11** by **laklak** » Jul 24, 2015 2:40 pm

I read the thread title as "Dead Sea Trolls", then I realized this wasn't Rationalia.

duvduv · **#12** by **duvduv** » Jul 24, 2015 3:26 pm

Of course history cannot use scientific methodology and no biases because it cannot reproduce experiments in a lab. It can only interpret and infer and analyze context.

Spearthrower · **#13** by **Spearthrower** » Jul 24, 2015 3:35 pm

duvduv wrote:Of course history cannot use scientific methodology and no biases because it cannot reproduce experiments in a lab. It can only interpret and infer and analyze context.

To clarify, i didn't say that it used scientific method, I said it uses the same prediction making to guide research.

The_Metatron · **#14** by **The_Metatron** » Jul 24, 2015 4:20 pm

Dead Sea Scrolls. Meh.

Old copies of bronze age fables. While old things are cool, the existence of these things means absolutely nothing to me beyond that.

laklak · **#15** by **laklak** » Jul 24, 2015 9:28 pm

Dead Sea Bowls.
Dead Sea Goals.
Dead Sea Knolls.
Dead Sea Lols.
Dead Sea Poles.
Dead Sea Dave Grohls.

duvduv · **#16** by **duvduv** » Jul 26, 2015 9:59 pm

The Scroll referring to the sect of Teacher of Righteousness states that their group emerged 390 years after the destruction of the first Temple, and that their leader emerged 20 years after that. The traditional dating has the time period that of Alexander Jannaeus the Hasmonean, but according to traditional Jewish dating, the first temple was destroyed in 423 BCE, not 587 BCE. Thus the sect emerged right smack in the midst of the rule of HEROD and his son-in-law SHIMON BEN BOETHUS about 15 years or so BCE.
Another interesting element is that of the sect that had a solar calendar. Traditionally Judaism uses a lunar calendar that gets reconciled with the solar calendar once every few years with a leap month ("Intercalation"). Evidently there were one or more sects who never followed this rabbinic calendar of the leap month, but their history is unknown since unlike the Samaritans and Saduccees they were never mentioned in the Talmud itself.

duvduv · **#17** by **duvduv** » Jul 26, 2015 10:00 pm

I don't know what The Metatron and Laklak seek to contribute in this thread. If they are uninterested, why bother posting meaningless messages?!

duvduv · **#18** by **duvduv** » Jul 27, 2015 12:11 am

In any event, one of the features of the findings from the caves were pairs of tefillin (phylacteries). These prayer ritual items are not mentioned in the Torah and are derived from the teachings of the rabbis in Rabbinic Judaism known as the Oral Law. Any sect that used these items had to have believed in the authority of rabbis even from previous generations. Thus, this itself calls into question again the theory that the findings of Qumran were exclusively items of non-rabbinic sects. The more I reread the material the more I say to myself that the author(s) is not NECESSARILY a non-rabbinic Jew.

The_Metatron · **#19** by **The_Metatron** » Jul 27, 2015 4:29 am

duvduv wrote:I don't know what The Metatron and Laklak seek to contribute in this thread. If they are uninterested, why bother posting meaningless messages?!

I think you do know.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

duvduv · **#20** by **duvduv** » Jul 27, 2015 6:11 am

I can only imagine, but I'm not a moderator to do anything about it.

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