theidiot wrote:
I was watching a film the other day, that closed with a violent scene of vengeance, beautifully done. Like an erotic dance of brutality. Throats were cut, men were continually stabbed, limbs were torn, bodies mutilated, and the girl I was watching it with slipped, and said, "Ooaah, I want to do that.", like a child watching other children on a merry-go-around, desiring to ride as well.

Just quickly, none of the examples you've cited are psychotics.

jparada wrote:

Autumn Clouds wrote:

The Old Testament explicitly forbids child sacrifice and names it an abhorrent practice

Yea, right, how does these sound?:
Exodus 22:29-30: You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.

Joshua 6:21
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Genesis 22:2
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Sure Abraham was stopped, but, the idea itself was not. The fact that Abraham would consider killing his own son for God, shows the extreme pshycological flaw, was it an act of compassion stoping the sacrifice?, It would be a much greater one, not asking him to even contemplate the idea.

About the passage from Exodus, you can find the relevant counterpart in Deuteronomy 15.19:

Set apart for the LORD your God every firstborn male of your herds and flocks. Do not put the firstborn of your oxen to work, and do not shear the firstborn of your sheep.

See how the ambiguous bit hinting at human sacrifice is lacking? that should tell you someting. OTOH, from Deuteronomy 12.31 we have:

You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

And again, in Deuteronomy 18.9-10:

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

If this isn't an indictment against human sacrifice, i don't know what it is. And i'm leaving out a couple more passages i can't find right now.

Regarding Deuteronomy 15:19, since that book comes after Exodus, all it tells me is that at this point god no longer requires human sacrifice.
Deuteronomy 12:31 can be interpreted that god doesn't like people to sacrifice to gods other than himself, and/or that he doesn't approve of sacrifices being done by burning them in fire - the latter also a possible interpretation for Deuteronomy 18:9-10

Yeah, religious delusions are rather common among psychotics. It makes me wonder if there isn't some primitive part of the brain having to do with woo and religion that is more activated during psychotic episodes.

Psycopaths* don't have a primitive brain, any more than you or I have. They only seem to have a considerably smaller amygdala.

Ted Kaczynski was a brilliant mathematician, and by far more advanced than his peers. He genuinly belived his delusion, which he explained in his manifesto. It shows a bizzare form of logic to justify his acts. I doubt it was instinctive at all.
As for the French Revolution, though, impulsed by noble goals of both enlightment and reason, it came all down to shit when Robespierre, belived himself to be a god. He even held somesort of ritual. It was a really strange case this one, he was the prime opposer of the death sentence, the prime voice of reason in the chaos, and then completley out of the blue opposed all his principles. I'm not sure what was the cause for his insanity, but things went from bad to worse then.

Autumn Clouds wrote:

Yeah, religious delusions are rather common among psychotics. It makes me wonder if there isn't some primitive part of the brain having to do with woo and religion that is more activated during psychotic episodes.

Psycopaths* don't have a primitive brain, any more than you or I have. They only seem to have a considerably smaller amygdala.

Ted Kaczynski was a brilliant mathematician, and by far more advanced than his peers. He genuinly belived his delusion, which he explained in his manifesto. It shows a bizzare form of logic to justify his acts. I doubt it was instinctive at all.
As for the French Revolution, though, impulsed by noble goals of both enlightment and reason, it came all down to shit when Robespierre, belived himself to be a god. He even held somesort of ritual. It was a really strange case this one, he was the prime opposer of the death sentence, the prime voice of reason in the chaos, and then completley out of the blue opposed all his principles. I'm not sure what was the cause for his insanity, but things went from bad to worse then.

Once again, someone is confusing psychotics with psychopaths. They are totally different things.

Once again, someone is confusing psychotics with psychopaths. They are totally different things.

I know, that's why I wrote, Psycopaths*, as to correct the other statement. Since the cases presented afterwards were due to psycopathic behaviour.

Before man invented dog, who did the psychos say was speaking to them?

Autumn Clouds wrote:

Once again, someone is confusing psychotics with psychopaths. They are totally different things.

I know, that's why I wrote, Psycopaths*, as to correct the other statement. Since the cases presented afterwards were due to psycopathic behaviour.

No. As far as can be told, the father who killed his daughters was probably having a psychotic episode. Therefore his behavior was psychotic, not psychopathic. When I was talking about religious delusions I was talking about psychotics. It's very common for people with a psychosis to have religious delusions and hallucinations.

eta: and if you think you are "correcting" someone's post, you might do well to spell the word correctly .

Tyrannical wrote:

Paula1 wrote:Lets face it, child killing in the old testament was quite the thing to do

With the amount of abortions we have in our modern society, I'm curious what they would think of our child killing practices?

Abortion doesn't kill children, abortion removes foetuses. A person isn't a person until they are born.

No. As far as can be told, the father who killed his daughters was probably having a psychotic episode. Therefore his behavior was psychotic, not psychopathic. When I was talking about religious delusions I was talking about psychotics. It's very common for people with a psychosis to have religious delusions and hallucinations.

We don't know that, most psychopaths have an inherhet attachment to a particular religious belief as well. Several child killing psychopaths have a deluded yet extremeley strong notion that killing a child will hasten them to heaven (a famous one, severed their head as to "make their soul get to heaven faster").
I completely agree with your statement on psychotics, however I doubt it's due to a primitive brain activation, since that most likely is the case with sexual predators. It's also curious that their 'ilusions' are rooted within the cultural trend (you don't see psychotic behaviour regarding aliens in the middle ages).
I was just correcting theidot's statement with the cases he presented in response.

eta: and if you think you are "correcting" someone's post, you might do well to spell the word correctly .

soz, I never really had a formal training in English, and we all speak/write Spanish in my country.

Autumn Clouds wrote:

No. As far as can be told, the father who killed his daughters was probably having a psychotic episode. Therefore his behavior was psychotic, not psychopathic. When I was talking about religious delusions I was talking about psychotics. It's very common for people with a psychosis to have religious delusions and hallucinations.

We don't know that, most psychopaths have an inherhet attachment to a particular religious belief as well. Several child killing psychopaths have a deluded yet extremeley strong notion that killing a child will hasten them to heaven (a famous one, severed their head as to "make their soul get to heaven faster").

No. Most psychopaths do NOT have "an inherent attachment to a particular religious belief". Where are you getting your info about this? Some leaders of cults are probably psychopathic but most people who kill their children while babbling about religious stuff are most likely psychotic. For example, it's rather common for mothers with post-partum psychosis to kill their infant in the midst of a psychotic delusion with religious features.

I completely agree with your statement on psychotics, however I doubt it's due to a primitive brain activation, since that most likely is the case with sexual predators. It's also curious that their 'ilusions' are rooted within the cultural trend (you don't see psychotic behaviour regarding aliens in the middle ages).

I don't understand your point in the first statement. Just because a primitive part of the brain causes one problem doesn't mean it couldn't also cause another problem.

Julia wrote:No. As far as can be told, the father who killed his daughters was probably having a psychotic episode. Therefore his behavior was psychotic, not psychopathic. When I was talking about religious delusions I was talking about psychotics. It's very common for people with a psychosis to have religious delusions and hallucinations.

I don't have an issue with the topic of religious delusions being a frequent symptom of psychosis, but where in the article did it say that the man in question suffered from it? I didn't notice anything about it written there.

Iconoplast wrote:

Julia wrote:No. As far as can be told, the father who killed his daughters was probably having a psychotic episode. Therefore his behavior was psychotic, not psychopathic. When I was talking about religious delusions I was talking about psychotics. It's very common for people with a psychosis to have religious delusions and hallucinations.

I don't have an issue with the topic of religious delusions being a frequent symptom of psychosis, but where in the article did it say that the man in question suffered from it? I didn't notice anything about it written there.

It didn't but I have been speculating.

No. Most psychopaths do NOT have "an inherent attachment to a particular religious belief". Where are you getting your info about this? Some leaders of cults are probably psychopathic but most people who kill their children while babbling about religious stuff are most likely psychotic. For example, it's rather common for mothers with post-partum psychosis to kill their infant in the midst of a psychotic delusion with religious features.

I apologize, it's my fault, had a rather poor choice of words in my previous statement, I need to express myself more clearly. I didn't ment it as an inherent attachment. What I did mean was that both psychopaths and sociopaths are heavily attracted by religions. Either they're swayed by the power the religions hold over people, blind belief and utter submissiveness to a particular charismatic figure. This is reinforced by the fact that several 'cult' leaders are or were in fact psychopaths or sociopaths. The other group of psycopaths and sociopaths, the ones that truly struggle with their impuleses are likely attracted to religion because these religions claim to deal with those issues. Establishing what's good or right as normal conductive behaviour. Due to how vague, and easily it is to take for 'right' those questionable moral precepts religion pose, in order to justify completley inmoral (nowadays) actions, that seem to coincide with the impulses these personality disorders have, and yet offer them 'eternal salvation' and pardon for past 'sins'. It's no surprise that a large number of psychopaths are indeed religious.
I wonder if religion itself should be branded as a psychopathic thing. Since, well it seems to have all the symptons, right?.

but most people who kill their children while babbling about religious stuff are most likely psychotic.

I kinda, disagree/agree with you in here. Yes, psychotic behaviour indeed can lead to the justification of death, because of an ilusion of sorts. But however, those parents who kill their daughters cause they were raped, those parents who killed their sons cause they were homosexuals, those people who stone others to death for being in the wrong religion, etc. Do not present a psychotic delusion at the time, it's simply a wrong moral judgment, and their behaviour is better branded as psychopathic.

I don't understand your point in the first statement. Just because a primitive part of the brain causes one problem doesn't mean it couldn't also cause another problem.

What I ment by this, is that due to the lack of universality of the psychotic delusions, which change acording to cultural trends is highly suggestive of a dysfunction of the brain to operate properly, not the activation of a primitive part. Sexual predators (those whom are not psychopathic), for instance are due to the activation (or lack of activation) of some areas of the brain which regulates arousal and hormones. Pedophilia, for instance is universal and found across the globe. Original psychotic delusions, are extremely rare. You don't see psychotics of uncivilized social groups present, psychotic delusions involving aliens for instance.
Psychotic behavior, on the other hand can also be induced by drugs, intense emotions, and so on. The mechanism which these events operate suggests that psychotics, are due to a neurotransmitter dysfunction. Due to the incredible amount of hormones realeased in pregnancy, it's no surprise that they may incur this types of psychotic behaviour, but all hallucinations regarding psychotics in PPD differ within cultures, and time, they don't remain constant.

nevermind

Autumn Clouds wrote:
I apologize, it's my fault, had a rather poor choice of words in my previous statement, I need to express myself more clearly. I didn't ment it as an inherent attachment. What I did mean was that both psychopaths and sociopaths are heavily attracted by religions.

They are? Do you have some evidence to support this? It's news to me.

Either they're swayed by the power the religions hold over people, blind belief and utter submissiveness to a particular charismatic figure.

The type of people who join cults and are swayed by cult leaders are most likely NOT psychopaths. Again, where are you getting this info? The leaders often are, yes, as I've said. But the leaders of a cult and the people who come into the leader's power likely have very different personalities and needs.

This is reinforced by the fact that several 'cult' leaders are or were in fact psychopaths or sociopaths.

Again, don't conflate the leaders of cults with the followers. Very difficult dynamics involved.

The other group of psycopaths and sociopaths, the ones that truly struggle with their impuleses are likely attracted to religion because these religions claim to deal with those issues.

No. psychopaths do not "struggle" with their impulses. On the contrary, they don't care enough to struggle with their impulses. What they likely struggle with is how to do what they want without getting caught. Remember, they don't have a conscience or core moral values.

Establishing what's good or right as normal conductive behaviour. Due to how vague, and easily it is to take for 'right' those questionable moral precepts religion pose, in order to justify completley inmoral (nowadays) actions, that seem to coincide with the impulses these personality disorders have, and yet offer them 'eternal salvation' and pardon for past 'sins'. It's no surprise that a large number of psychopaths are indeed religious.

Show me the evidence for this last contention, please.

but most people who kill their children while babbling about religious stuff are most likely psychotic.

I kinda, disagree/agree with you in here. Yes, psychotic behaviour indeed can lead to the justification of death, because of an ilusion of sorts.

My specific example was about post-partum psychosis and killing of babies. So-called honor killings is a whole other thing. They're usually done by adult men who are not psychotic. And, psychotic behavior doesn't "lead to the justification" of anything. And it's not an "illusion". They're called "delusions."

But however, those parents who kill their daughters cause they were raped, those parents who killed their sons cause they were homosexuals, those people who stone others to death for being in the wrong religion, etc. Do not present a psychotic delusion at the time, it's simply a wrong moral judgment, and their behaviour is better branded as psychopathic.

See above where I address "honor killings."

What I ment by this, is that due to the lack of universality of the psychotic delusions, which change acording to cultural trends is highly suggestive of a dysfunction of the brain to operate properly, not the activation of a primitive part.

Not necessarily. Different cultures will produce differences in the religious delusion in the details involved, but the basic delusion is still religious in nature and could still come from whatever part of the brain is responsible for religious ideation. Again, I am just speculating about these things.

Sexual predators (those whom are not psychopathic), for instance are due to the activation (or lack of activation) of some areas of the brain which regulates arousal and hormones. Pedophilia, for instance is universal and found across the globe.

I would argue that just about ALL "sexual predators" are, by definition, psychopaths. The nub of it is in that word "predator."

Original psychotic delusions, are extremely rare. You don't see psychotics of uncivilized social groups present, psychotic delusions involving aliens for instance.

Just details. The source of it could be the same.

Psychotic behavior, on the other hand can also be induced by drugs, intense emotions, and so on. The mechanism which these events operate suggests that psychotics, are due to a neurotransmitter dysfunction.

Yes, and this does not negate anything I've said.

Due to the incredible amount of hormones realeased in pregnancy, it's no surprise that they may incur this types of psychotic behaviour,

Well, actually, what probably causes post-partum psychosis in a vulnerable person is the very sudden drop in hormones that occur after birth. Not the "hormones released in pregnancy."

but all hallucinations regarding psychotics in PPD differ within cultures, and time, they don't remain constant.

They aren't that different except in the details.

I really need to express myself better

I would argue that just about ALL "sexual predators" are, by definition, psychopaths. The nub of it is in that word "predator."

Yes, but psychopathy has no absolutes in it's definition. Not all sexual predators are necesarily psycopaths, some present the mileder version of it, the disorder of narcisim. However, I'm willing to concede this point since it could be argued that narcisism is some sort of psychopathy.

They are? Do you have some evidence to support this? It's news to me.

By definition: A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power ...
If you look throughout history, most and the worse of psychopaths or either belong and are quite faithful to a certain religion, or tend to create one of their own, and ritualize their acts of violence in order to provide some twisted meaning to them, thus practicing a religion. I never heard of an atheist psychopath, I assumed they were a rare breed, of course I may be mistaken in this point.

Again, don't conflate the leaders of cults with the followers. Very difficult dynamics involved.

It was my point precisely. Most of cult leader/s tend to be psychopaths. The charismatic figure/s I was talking about, was them.

Show me the evidence for this last contention, please.

No. psychopaths do not "struggle" with their impulses. On the contrary, they don't care enough to struggle with their impulses. What they likely struggle with is how to do what they want without getting caught. Remember, they don't have a conscience or core moral values.

Not all tread in those absolutes. There are several degrees to psychopathy, some of the which actually have some form of morality. If we consider that all sexual predators for instance are psychopaths, what will you do out of the increasing number of religious figures in almost all major religions that turn out to be pedophiles?.

My specific example was about post-partum psychosis and killing of babies. So-called honor killings is a whole other thing. They're usually done by adult men who are not psychotic. And, psychotic behavior doesn't "lead to the justification" of anything. And it's not an "illusion". They're called "delusions."

Honor killings are carried on while babbling religious nonsense aswell, it's what I ment. Some isolated Tantrist groups in Hinduism justify child sacrifice for instance. If you check the main article, you'll see that this was a rather ritualistic death for the goddess Kali Mata it could go either way, psychopathy or psychosis. Psychotic delusions do justify these actions, they override moral and evolutionary values of protecting and guarding their offsprings. They do not use the same justification as psychopaths, that's true, but it's a form of justification to their own concious mind, and the world surrounding them.

Not necessarily. Different cultures will produce differences in the religious delusion in the details involved, but the basic delusion is still religious in nature and could still come from whatever part of the brain is responsible for religious ideation. Again, I am just speculating about these things.

Not entierly. Yes, since most of the times in history religion was the only explanation to 'supernatural' events they come from a religious perspective. But for instance nowadays it's ever more common cases of psychotic delusions, comparable if not worse with previous delusions involving extraterrestrial beings. Scientolgoy is a clear example. Take another known and equally bizarre phenomena (which I had a few unfortunatelly) sleep paralysis. Through out history it was attributed to devil possesion, or evil spirits some of them involved vivid hallucinations. Now its more and more attributed to alien abductions.
Religious belief does not use a particular part of the brain either, that I'm aware of. It's far from instinctual, derives from the need of consolation and being able to determinate patterns in the surrounding world (these do use a particular part of the brain).

Just details. The source of it could be the same.

They aren't that different except in the details.

Yes the source, is the same. Neurotransmitter dysfunction, particularly glutamate or dopamine (it's not really known). But the way the brain 'fills in the gaps' of hallucinations with cultural phenomena, it's an indicator that no particular part (especially not primitive) of the brain is active, but it's rather a complex process involving access and linking of long term memory with immediate sensorial data. We all have and use these brain parts for diverse porpuses during all our life.

Well, actually, what probably causes post-partum psychosis in a vulnerable person is the very sudden drop in hormones that occur after birth. Not the "hormones released in pregnancy."

Agreed. Same happens with most drugs for instance, the 'trip' and associated hallucinations come after the main exhilerating effects subside.

You seem to have a rather insightful knowledge on this area, could I ask your opinion on something?
It is known that we have very high genetic similitudes with swines, they're very intelligent creatures as well. Do you belive the correlation with the swine behaviour in confining spaces (utter chaos, violence and offspring murders) could be correlated with our behaviour in a society with everymore increasing number of individuals and of confined spaces?. Swines tend to have almost exemplary behaviour when left alone, they become incredibly clean have and tend careful care to their families and even interact peacefully with other social groups.

This discussion is getting a bit tedious for me because I'm having trouble knowing when you just aren't being clear vs. when you are just incorrect in your understanding.

Adult fathers who commit "honor killings" are not psychotic, for the most part. It doesn't matter that they are "babbling about religion". There's a huge difference between being a "normal" brainwashed religious adherent vs. being under the sway of a psychotic delusion.

And as for historical religious psychopaths--they are using the religion for their own ends. Mohammad is a good example of this. He may have actually believed he was God's messenger or prophet or whatever--we can't know one way or the other--but he clearly was also an opportunistic cult leader.

If we consider that all sexual predators for instance are psychopaths, what will you do out of the increasing number of religious figures in almost all major religions that turn out to be pedophiles?.

What do you mean? It's still a minority of clergy who act-out sexually on children. But yes, they are all some degree of psychopath.

You seem to have a rather insightful knowledge on this area, could I ask your opinion on something?
It is known that we have very high genetic similitudes with swines, they're very intelligent creatures as well. Do you belive the correlation with the swine behaviour in confining spaces (utter chaos, violence and offspring murders) could be correlated with our behaviour in a society with everymore increasing number of individuals and of confined spaces?. Swines tend to have almost exemplary behaviour when left alone, they become incredibly clean have and tend careful care to their families and even interact peacefully with other social groups.

I honestly have no idea and haven't done much reading on the matter. I would venture to speculate that all higher mammals probably have limits to how crowded they can be and still function normally or optimally.

This discussion is getting a bit tedious for me because I'm having trouble knowing when you just aren't being clear vs. when you are just incorrect in your understanding.

Sorry about that, I'll try to be more clear, and if i'm incorrect don't give up hope on me.

Adult fathers who commit "honor killings" are not psychotic, for the most part. It doesn't matter that they are "babbling about religion". There's a huge difference between being a "normal" brainwashed religious adherent vs. being under the sway of a psychotic delusion.

And as for historical religious psychopaths--they are using the religion for their own ends. Mohammad is a good example of this. He may have actually believed he was God's messenger or prophet or whatever--we can't know one way or the other--but he clearly was also an opportunistic cult leader.

I know there's a substancial difference between both of them. It was in response of your argument that most people killing others while babbling religious nonsense were most likely psychotics.

What do you mean? It's still a minority of clergy who act-out sexually on children. But yes, they are all some degree of psychopath.

Aye, but it was intended towards the argument that psychopaths are attracted to religion.

I honestly have no idea and haven't done much reading on the matter. I would venture to speculate that all higher mammals probably have limits to how crowded they can be and still function normally or optimally.

Spooky idea. Thanks for your opinion.