Is Buddhism a religion?

XiledSpawn · #1 by **XiledSpawn** » Mar 02, 2010 6:08 am

Very old and repeated question, but no forum is complete without it :lol:

statichaos · #2 by **statichaos** » Mar 02, 2010 6:10 am

Yes. "Religion" does not necessarily equal "Theism". I've had the same debate regarding my own religion.

Darwinsbulldog · #3 by **Darwinsbulldog** » Mar 02, 2010 6:35 am

Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

statichaos · #4 by **statichaos** » Mar 02, 2010 6:41 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Not in all versions. Zen does not require belief in either.

Darwinsbulldog · #5 by **Darwinsbulldog** » Mar 02, 2010 6:49 am

statichaos wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Not in all versions. Zen does not require belief in either.

Then I stand corrected, but if there is woo in Zen, I will surely find it!

statichaos · #6 by **statichaos** » Mar 02, 2010 6:56 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
statichaos wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Not in all versions. Zen does not require belief in either.

Then I stand corrected, but if there is woo in Zen, I will surely find it!

Good luck with that. A couple of hours with Zen koans and I felt like I'd put my mind through a blender. :crazy:

Wiðercora · #7 by **Wiðercora** » Mar 02, 2010 3:58 pm

Find a definition of religion, and see if Buddhism fits the criteria?

statichaos · #8 by **statichaos** » Mar 02, 2010 5:05 pm

Wiðercora wrote:Find a definition of religion, and see if Buddhism fits the criteria?

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

— re·li·gion·less adjective

Ilovelucy · #9 by **Ilovelucy** » Mar 06, 2010 3:45 pm

statichaos wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:
statichaos wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Not in all versions. Zen does not require belief in either.

Then I stand corrected, but if there is woo in Zen, I will surely find it!

Good luck with that. A couple of hours with Zen koans and I felt like I'd put my mind through a blender.

I love Zen koans, and the Zen infused poetry of Dogen and Basho. Like poetry, Zen is profoundly stimulating and immersive, while at the same time it is utterly useless and not for everybody.

Mick · **#10** by **Mick** » Mar 06, 2010 6:27 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

There are gods in Buddhism. They're just not some creator being or some necessary being. Such beings are contingent, finite and did not create the universe. Why think that Buddhism adheres to the position that there are souls without bodies? The Buddha, if I recall correctly, said no such thing.

statichaos · **#11** by **statichaos** » Mar 07, 2010 4:51 am

Ilovelucy wrote:

I love Zen koans, and the Zen infused poetry of Dogen and Basho. Like poetry, Zen is profoundly stimulating and immersive, while at the same time it is utterly useless and not for everybody.

Oh, I love them, too, but...damn. Read Basho, not Dogen. I'll check it out. Thanks for the name.

nunnington · **#12** by **nunnington** » Mar 08, 2010 2:25 pm

Ilovelucy

When you say Zen is useless, it depends on what you mean by Zen. I've been doing Zen practice for 30 years, and I find it pretty useful for various things. In fact, you could say it has changed my life, since it enabled me to burst through the paper hoop of 'life', and other illusions. Not bad, eh? But I guess, yes, this is all complete nonsense!

Teuton · **#13** by **Teuton** » Mar 08, 2010 2:35 pm

"Some scholars have denied that Buddhism is a religion because Buddhists do not believe in a Supreme Being or in a personal soul. But is this judgement based on too narrow a definition of 'religion'? According to Ninian Smart, religions have the following 'seven dimensions'. If Smart is correct, it seems justifiable to classify Buddhism as a religion:

1. Practical and Ritual
2. Experiential and Emotional
3. Narrative and Mythic
4. Doctrinal and Philosophical
5. Ethical and Legal
6. Social and Institutional
7. Material"

(Keown, Damien. Buddhism: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000. p. 5)

(7 refers to the material dimension which "includes objects in which the spirit of a religion becomes incarnate, such as churches, temples, works of art, statues, sacred sites, and holy places like pilgrimage sites." [Keown, p. 12])

Ilovelucy · **#14** by **Ilovelucy** » Mar 08, 2010 3:26 pm

nunnington wrote:Ilovelucy

When you say Zen is useless, it depends on what you mean by Zen. I've been doing Zen practice for 30 years, and I find it pretty useful for various things. In fact, you could say it has changed my life, since it enabled me to burst through the paper hoop of 'life', and other illusions. Not bad, eh? But I guess, yes, this is all complete nonsense!

I mean useless in the most complimentary way. People shouldn't embrace Zen because it will provide a solution to the practical concerns about their current life. Also, Zen reveals nothing of those looking for the use in it. That said, I've not been a thirty year student of it so this is just my opinion.

nunnington · **#15** by **nunnington** » Mar 08, 2010 3:50 pm

Ilovelucy

Yes, there are lots of nice stories of Zen teachers (and students) exclaiming, 'what the hell are we doing sitting here staring at a bloody wall?' Everybody collapses in giggles, and carries on!

A friend of mine just finished 10 years as a Soto Zen monk, which basically involved staring at the wall for ten years. So ask him what was the point!

He also worked with Rinzai for a while, and one of his koans was 'how many stars are there in the sky?' Real pretty. But it will half-kill you if you really get into it.

notself · **#16** by **notself** » Mar 09, 2010 5:20 am

No creator god, no creation story, no eternal soul in Buddhism. What is reborn is the process of life according to my understanding of things and of this poem.

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.

No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.

No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."

- Visuddhimagga XVI 90

nunnington · **#17** by **nunnington** » Mar 09, 2010 9:11 am

notself

Or even - no path.

notself · **#18** by **notself** » Mar 09, 2010 3:45 pm

nunnington wrote:notself

Or even - no path.

Heretic!

nunnington · **#19** by **nunnington** » Mar 09, 2010 5:53 pm

notself

I remember a few years ago reading a Zen poem which contained the line, 'neither I nor the world exist', and I felt both nauseous, exhilarated, and relieved. Ah, that was what had been bugging me for 40 years! I could let go.

notself · **#20** by **notself** » Mar 09, 2010 6:48 pm

nunnington wrote:notself

I remember a few years ago reading a Zen poem which contained the line, 'neither I nor the world exist', and I felt both nauseous, exhilarated, and relieved. Ah, that was what had been bugging me for 40 years! I could let go.

I don't follow Zen but I enjoy some of its densely packed sayings. My favorite is, "If you meet the Buddha, kill him."