what about the hindus?

Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Paganism, Taoism etc.

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: what about the hindus?

#41  Postby Shiv » Jul 16, 2011 5:05 am

Hey! I'm a devout Hindu and I'm pretty much offended by all the unfounded allegations that you guys make!

Just kidding :-P

I am a Hindu, yes, but I wont be bothered by any of you or anything that you say (except if you are a rabid christian who tries to convert every organism he encounters or a muslim terrorist who tries to blow up the same - we really are sick and tired of these guys, and the idiots who call themselves "secular" pandering to these very missionaries and terrorists, but who also unfortunately make up the political, media and the elite classes).

There is this entity variously called as Brahman/Atman etc. But you need to really slog to understand all of it. No, it's not bull shit. Just heavy, like any other serious discipline.

We are a weird bunch of people. The Hindu religion allows for complete inclusivity, which means you can find people in all belief spectrum - atheists, deists, pantheists, animists, theists, even monotheistic fanatics like the Hare Krishna freaks. The Hindu religion accepts and treats all of them the same. It's actually less of a religion (as religion is perceived in the west) and more of a way of life.

Err... i also have to accept that there are many negatives to us too. 1000 years of invasion, slavery and foreign rule has totally left us devastated and most of us are still bound by those same chains, albeit mentally.

Unfortunately, the period when there should have been a renaissance - the current period - is actually seeing an onslaught by the same forces under different names: colonialism has become globalization, islamic/christian fundamentalism has become minorityism (they make up like 25-30% of the population and have a higher population growth rate than Hindus, but still claim minority status)

The bad stuff about caste and widow burning etc are mostly fall out of the invasions. Most of them are now reliably shown to have been caused by the islamic marauders or the british plunderers. The impact of the british rule, or rather misrule, is seen and felt in the obstacles that are blocking an indigenous revival and reform, in the form of corruption in politics and media. The SOBs are wantonly sticking to outdated stuff created by the invaders, so that they can enjoy being the elite class. Any right thinking Indian would attest to this.

The Hindu way of life, on the whole is very flexible - it doesnt have a founder or a single book (claiming exclusivity) or a solitary prophet. It is not sectarian. Most importantly, it is not oppressive/aggressive towards others (unless say you are an islamic invader that brandishes a sword). Since there are a couple of inherent atheist philosophies, you'll find quite a few Hindus agreeing with you (Or just wait for a couple of posts, I'll myself tell that. LOL!)

I'm glad to help any of you folks who want to know more. If there are stuff I cant explain I'll try to get help. I can even introduce some Hindu Gods and Goddesses whom you can subject to your rational inquiry (though they are close to my heart)
User avatar
Shiv
 
Name: Shivsankar
Posts: 31
Age: 34
Male

Country: India
India (in)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: what about the hindus?

#42  Postby cavarka9 » Jul 16, 2011 6:40 am

Non sense. caste and sati were prevalent much before 8th century AD.
Every moment is a choice.Choices you make now determine your destiny.free yourself of old choices made. Success is a journey,not a destination.
User avatar
cavarka9
 
Name: prajna
Posts: 3256

Country: 21.0000° N, 78.0000° E
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#43  Postby Shiv » Jul 16, 2011 6:46 am

cavarka9 wrote:Non sense. caste and sati were prevalent much before 8th century AD.


Of course. But were they bad then?
User avatar
Shiv
 
Name: Shivsankar
Posts: 31
Age: 34
Male

Country: India
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#44  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jul 16, 2011 6:48 am

Because most Hindus are isolated to one small portion of the world. Christians and Muslims are all over the fucking place. I couldn't tell you when the last time I met a Hindu and I think that goes for most people on these forums.
"Things don't need to be true, as long as they are believed" - Alexander Nix, CEO Cambridge Analytica
User avatar
CdesignProponentsist
 
Posts: 12533
Age: 52
Male

Country: California
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#45  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 16, 2011 6:50 am

Shiv wrote:
There is this entity variously called as Brahman/Atman etc. But you need to really slog to understand all of it. No, it's not bull shit. Just heavy, like any other serious discipline.


What's your definition of bullshit?

For me, the asserted claim of the existence of an entity, with ensuing ontological characteristics, without sufficient or in fact any evidence for any part of that claim quite comfortably constitutes 'bullshit" - but I can use an alternative word if you find it offensive: fantasy.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27213
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#46  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 16, 2011 6:51 am

CdesignProponentsist wrote:Because most Hindus are isolated to one small portion of the world. Christians and Muslims are all over the fucking place. I couldn't tell you when the last time I met a Hindu and I think that goes for most people on these forums.



Spent around a year and a half in India, so I met plenty of Hindus! :)
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27213
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#47  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jul 16, 2011 7:00 am

Spearthrower wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:Because most Hindus are isolated to one small portion of the world. Christians and Muslims are all over the fucking place. I couldn't tell you when the last time I met a Hindu and I think that goes for most people on these forums.



Spent around a year and a half in India, so I met plenty of Hindus! :)


I'm sure most here have done the same... not :P
"Things don't need to be true, as long as they are believed" - Alexander Nix, CEO Cambridge Analytica
User avatar
CdesignProponentsist
 
Posts: 12533
Age: 52
Male

Country: California
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: what about the hindus?

#48  Postby cavarka9 » Jul 16, 2011 7:03 am

Shiv wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:Non sense. caste and sati were prevalent much before 8th century AD.


Of course. But were they bad then?

I could have laughed at it if it were not so heinous a thought. Manu smriti which claims to put hot mercury down the ears of those lower castes if they hear vedas, or burning of women because their husbands died before them. Or the punishment of a brahmin when he rapes a lower caste women is to have a blindfold but if a lower caste person were to rape an upper caste women, their eyes would be...
Every moment is a choice.Choices you make now determine your destiny.free yourself of old choices made. Success is a journey,not a destination.
User avatar
cavarka9
 
Name: prajna
Posts: 3256

Country: 21.0000° N, 78.0000° E
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#49  Postby Shiv » Jul 16, 2011 9:09 am

Hold On folks! :shock:

I joined just today and already you are asking me to defend the mountain! I have to issue a disci then.

Disci: I am not a scholar of the Hindu Culture and its traditions, I am just a student and ardent lover of my country and its culture. I can not speak with authority - enough authority - or provide evidences to claims.

What I say is my personal view and understanding what I get to see, hear and read. If I dont know something, I will say I dont know. And there can be better explanations for what I may say sometimes.

That said, while analyzing Hindu social customs and traditions, please do not use the wrong scales to measure. If you are gauging the past, especially the last 1000 years, then please do so by comparing the Indian society of that age, with its contemporary western society and NOT with today's morality - Indian or Western.

Let me see if I can elaborate on the few allegations given here.
User avatar
Shiv
 
Name: Shivsankar
Posts: 31
Age: 34
Male

Country: India
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#50  Postby Shiv » Jul 16, 2011 9:28 am

Spearthrower wrote:

What's your definition of bullshit?

For me, the asserted claim of the existence of an entity, with ensuing ontological characteristics, without sufficient or in fact any evidence for any part of that claim quite comfortably constitutes 'bullshit" - but I can use an alternative word if you find it offensive: fantasy.


Up front, let me tell you that I tried to explain this to others. And failed miserably! As I said, it is quite abstruse in the beginning (and I have just begun). I have not been able to understand much that is said about it. Yet. It is a lifelong study, because once you understand it, know it - nothing else remains unknown.

But it is obviously not fantasy. Something is fantasy or nonsense, only when it cannot be verified or replicated or reproduced. Fantasy is subjective. Knowledge is objective. Especially this one.

Fortunately, there are so many people who've been there, done that. If a process, result and inference has been given, and it can be replicated successfully - already has been replicated many times - with each person confirming the same thing, is it fantasy? I believe what I believe due to this reason.

I have to warn you though, the people mentioned above are NOT these fraud godmen. It is very easy to distinguish between these quacks and a really enlightened person. Simply because, none of these enlightened people will claim to perform miracles! They will be plain and simple men/women, mostly monks.

Therefore, it is neither fantasy, nor bull shit (no, i wont be offended) - just plain knowledge, that you can obtain by studying with a teacher. A teacher or a Guru is essential though. Especially someone who already knows. (I dont have a teacher, wherein my handicap :-()
User avatar
Shiv
 
Name: Shivsankar
Posts: 31
Age: 34
Male

Country: India
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#51  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jul 16, 2011 9:30 am

Shiv wrote:
Let me see if I can elaborate on the few allegations given here.


You wont get far with that. But go ahead and try. Expect to be spun in circles and become frustrated.

Can you give me an idea what the living practice of Hinduism is and tell what you think is the best part of it? I mean the real nuts an bolts daily stuff and maybe a little of the more enlightened philosophical ideas.
"Daddy, why did god make YEC's?"
User avatar
SpeedOfSound
RS Donator
 
Posts: 32079
Age: 69
Male

Kyrgyzstan (kg)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#52  Postby james1v » Jul 16, 2011 9:39 am

:popcorn:
"When humans yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon". Thomas Paine.
User avatar
james1v
 
Name: James.
Posts: 8930
Age: 61
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#53  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 16, 2011 9:44 am

Shiv wrote:
Up front, let me tell you that I tried to explain this to others. And failed miserably! As I said, it is quite abstruse in the beginning (and I have just begun). I have not been able to understand much that is said about it. Yet. It is a lifelong study, because once you understand it, know it - nothing else remains unknown.


It's ok... I expect normal people to have trouble expressing fantasies as facts - one needs to be fully indoctrinated and trained in the art of deception to churn out seemingly clever, but vacuously hollow verbal defences of empirically unsupported claims.


Shiv wrote:But it is obviously not fantasy.


Obviously not? Obviously? If it were 'obvious' then there MUST be evidence. Evidence that makes this being OBVIOUS, ergo why are there people who do not accept it as fact? The Sun is OBVIOUSLY there, no one would dispute it. So your 'obvious' also appears to be requiring a definition.

Shiv wrote:Something is fantasy or nonsense, only when it cannot be verified or replicated or reproduced.


Quite: so, as I said, "asserted claim of the existence of an entity..... without sufficient or in fact any evidence" - you are thereby required to provide the evidence that makes this entity obvious, rather than engage in a barrage of equally empty assertions.


Shiv wrote: Fantasy is subjective. Knowledge is objective. Especially this one.


Then you'll have no trouble providing the objective evidence, will you?


Shiv wrote:Fortunately, there are so many people who've been there, done that. If a process, result and inference has been given, and it can be replicated successfully - already has been replicated many times - with each person confirming the same thing, is it fantasy? I believe what I believe due to this reason.


Great, aside from appealing to popularity, and telling me that other people have confirmed this evidence, can you instead just provide me with the evidence and let me be the judge of its merit?


Shiv wrote:I have to warn you though, the people mentioned above are NOT these fraud godmen. It is very easy to distinguish between these quacks and a really enlightened person. Simply because, none of these enlightened people will claim to perform miracles! They will be plain and simple men/women, mostly monks.


I am not actually in the slightest bit interested in the assumed characteristics of the people who have or haven't confirmed this objective, evidentially supported entity... all I am interested in is the evidence which makes this entity, in your words, objective, verifiable, repeatable, reproduceable.


Shiv wrote:Therefore, it is neither fantasy, nor bull shit


Therefore indicates a conclusion - you have provided nothing of merit to arrive at this conclusion. You might as well just have stated 'it's a fact because I say it is' - where's the objective evidence for this entity?


Shiv wrote:(no, i wont be offended) - just plain knowledge,


Your definition of knowledge also seems to be on the line here.


Shiv wrote:that you can obtain by studying with a teacher. A teacher or a Guru is essential though. Especially someone who already knows. (I dont have a teacher, wherein my handicap :-()


Why would I need a guru, teacher, or any other authority if there is objective evidence?

Really, your entire post was an appeal to authority. You have established nothing of critical value other than to show that you believe because you believe, and evidence has bugger all to do with it.

For me, I don't have any respect for assertions that are made as fact when they are actually beliefs masquerading as knowledge. You can present evidence if you have it, and I can thereby independently inquire into that evidence, but if you do not have the evidence, you can expect your evidentially unsupported assertions rebutted by equally evidentially unsupported assertions i.e. it's fantasy.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27213
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#54  Postby GenesForLife » Jul 16, 2011 9:51 am

Let me simplify things for you, Shiv, is the relationship between the Atman and the Brahman correctly represented by the Dvaita, advaita or vishistadvaita schools of thought? ;)
GenesForLife
 
Posts: 2920
Age: 30
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#55  Postby cavarka9 » Jul 16, 2011 9:56 am

Shiv wrote:Hold On folks! :shock:

I joined just today and already you are asking me to defend the mountain! I have to issue a disci then.

Disci: I am not a scholar of the Hindu Culture and its traditions, I am just a student and ardent lover of my country and its culture. I can not speak with authority - enough authority - or provide evidences to claims.

What I say is my personal view and understanding what I get to see, hear and read. If I dont know something, I will say I dont know. And there can be better explanations for what I may say sometimes.

That said, while analyzing Hindu social customs and traditions, please do not use the wrong scales to measure. If you are gauging the past, especially the last 1000 years, then please do so by comparing the Indian society of that age, with its contemporary western society and NOT with today's morality - Indian or Western.

Let me see if I can elaborate on the few allegations given here.



Well, it was you who jumped in and posted this before reading through to begin with to see for yourself the 'standard' of discussions we have here, so it was you who made it here and began, we are just replying to what you said. I suggest you to read around a bit first.
Every moment is a choice.Choices you make now determine your destiny.free yourself of old choices made. Success is a journey,not a destination.
User avatar
cavarka9
 
Name: prajna
Posts: 3256

Country: 21.0000° N, 78.0000° E
India (in)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: what about the hindus?

#56  Postby Shiv » Jul 16, 2011 10:03 am

Spearthrower wrote:
For me, I don't have any respect for assertions that are made as fact when they are actually beliefs masquerading as knowledge. You can present evidence if you have it, and I can thereby independently inquire into that evidence, but if you do not have the evidence, you can expect your evidentially unsupported assertions rebutted by equally evidentially unsupported assertions i.e. it's fantasy.


Evidence for my claims are available in texts called Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita and Brahmasutras. What I've been trying to tell you is that I dont understand much about them. You are welcome to call them fantasy. Without even trying to read them.

My last attempt with an illustration:

I googled for a tough math theorem and got something called "Fermat's Last Theorem". I dont clearly understand what it says. And I definitely dont understand the proof, because I dont know any of the math that forms the basis of this theorem.

Now, if I were to ask you for evidence for this Fermat's theorem, but I dont understand any of it. And I claim that this is all fantasy.

Wont I be wrong? I dont know the math that is required to understand this theorem. I have to put in the effort to first understand the foundation math. If I'm not exceptionally brilliant, I would then even need someone who already understands it to explain it to me.
User avatar
Shiv
 
Name: Shivsankar
Posts: 31
Age: 34
Male

Country: India
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#57  Postby cavarka9 » Jul 16, 2011 10:05 am

As far as the issue of comparing hindus with the present standards, I atleast am comparing them to the standards of buddhists and jains, samkhya, yogis and the nasthikas of the same time period and lived amongst Hindus and well, hindus dont stand up that well, One could atleast claim that since christians and muslims didnt live besides these people and hence may not have known better(I disagree, but for the sake of the argument). But the hindus did live besides these people, did hear what they had to say and still did not do better?.
Every moment is a choice.Choices you make now determine your destiny.free yourself of old choices made. Success is a journey,not a destination.
User avatar
cavarka9
 
Name: prajna
Posts: 3256

Country: 21.0000° N, 78.0000° E
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#58  Postby Shiv » Jul 16, 2011 10:08 am

GenesForLife wrote:Let me simplify things for you, Shiv, is the relationship between the Atman and the Brahman correctly represented by the Dvaita, advaita or vishistadvaita schools of thought? ;)


Well, I follow the Advaita school. I would consider Dvaita to be the first step and Advaita, the final one, with Vishistadvaita in the middle.
User avatar
Shiv
 
Name: Shivsankar
Posts: 31
Age: 34
Male

Country: India
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#59  Postby Shiv » Jul 16, 2011 10:09 am

cavarka9 wrote:As far as the issue of comparing hindus with the present standards, I atleast am comparing them to the standards of buddhists and jains, samkhya, yogis and the nasthikas of the same time period and lived amongst Hindus and well, hindus dont stand up that well, One could atleast claim that since christians and muslims didnt live besides these people and hence may not have known better(I disagree, but for the sake of the argument). But the hindus did live besides these people, did hear what they had to say and still did not do better?.


:(

If these people are others, who else is Hindu?
User avatar
Shiv
 
Name: Shivsankar
Posts: 31
Age: 34
Male

Country: India
India (in)
Print view this post

Re: what about the hindus?

#60  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 16, 2011 10:11 am

Shiv wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
For me, I don't have any respect for assertions that are made as fact when they are actually beliefs masquerading as knowledge. You can present evidence if you have it, and I can thereby independently inquire into that evidence, but if you do not have the evidence, you can expect your evidentially unsupported assertions rebutted by equally evidentially unsupported assertions i.e. it's fantasy.


Evidence for my claims are available in texts called Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita and Brahmasutras. What I've been trying to tell you is that I dont understand much about them. You are welcome to call them fantasy. Without even trying to read them.



Evidence for the existence of Sauron is available in the trilogy of The Lord of the Rings. You are welcome to call it fantasy without even trying to read them.



Shiv wrote:My last attempt with an illustration:

I googled for a tough math theorem and got something called "Fermat's Last Theorem". I dont clearly understand what it says. And I definitely dont understand the proof, because I dont know any of the math that forms the basis of this theorem.

Now, if I were to ask you for evidence for this Fermat's theorem, but I dont understand any of it. And I claim that this is all fantasy.

Wont I be wrong? I dont know the math that is required to understand this theorem. I have to put in the effort to first understand the foundation math. If I'm not exceptionally brilliant, I would then even need someone who already understands it to explain it to me.


A theorum doesn't require external evidence, the 'proof' is the evidence in and of itself. This is obviously not a very good analogy as math itself is an abstraction from reality, whereas your claim is that this entity is a fact of reality. For it to be considered a facet of reality requires objective evidence.

All you have really told me is that you believe in the existence of this entity on the word of others. That in many ways is worse than believing it because you have subjective experiences that lead you to believe this.

To wit:

My mate Dave, who I can personally vouch for as being an honest, intelligent, and generally nice guy, says that Brahman doesn't exist. Now we have two secondary sources of assertions we can appeal to - how do we judge between them?
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27213
Age: 43
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Other Religions & Belief Systems

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest