A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#21  Postby hackenslash » Jan 02, 2014 12:54 pm

McNulty wrote:So are you saying that all sex workers are vulnerable?


That would depend on the precise definition of 'vulnerable' you're employing here. Are they 'in harm's way'? They most certainly are.

How very arrogant.


Confidence and arrogance are often falsely conflated by those who lack any real understanding.

know plenty of women who CHOOSE to do sex work.


That doesn't mean that they aren't vulnerable.

Yes, freedom of choice is a great thing.


It certainly is, although how many of these women have been given any REAL choice?
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#22  Postby hackenslash » Jan 02, 2014 12:55 pm

McNulty wrote:for interfering with the body of a woman


Lovely hyperbole you have there. Got any substance?
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#23  Postby hackenslash » Jan 02, 2014 12:56 pm

McNulty wrote:Come back and talk to me when you've finished high school.


Ah, ad hominem. A sure sign that you're out of your depth.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#24  Postby Pebble » Jan 02, 2014 2:16 pm

McNulty wrote:
Pebble wrote:Protection of the vulnerable would be a reasonable starting point for your inquiries.


So are you saying that all sex workers are vulnerable? How very arrogant.

I know plenty of women who CHOOSE to do sex work.

Yes, freedom of choice is a great thing.


This reply suggests that your inquiries failed to get past your most basic prejudices. Did I use the work all? Did I imply all? etc. Your detailed exploration of the topic at hand, suggests the high-school failed you.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#25  Postby THWOTH » Jan 02, 2014 3:08 pm

McNulty wrote:For reasons of consistency, it is my view that a feminist must support Abortion and full legalisation of female to male sex work.

This is because the choice must remain with the woman. To me, this seems perfectly correct, however many feminists disagree with the second point.

How can that be?

For me the questions revolve around the notion of personal ownership. Do we have a right to own our own bodies and to do with them what we wish? I would affirm that we do, if and when we have a free choice as autonomous individuals, and as long as those choices do not unduly impinge on the choices of others or adversely impact on the well-being of others. This is not a uniquely feminist perspective.

The difficulty with squaring this with abortion is whether we consider the unborn individuals to have rights--or at least discrete rights aside from those of their mothers--that should be protected and affirmed, and if so, at what point in gestation can this be said to be the case. From conception? From 12 or 16 weeks? From 22, 28 or 36 weeks? From birth? Whatever we say here we cannot deny that a choice for termination is going to have an adverse impact on the well-being of the unborn.

Children of course are not generally considered to be autonomous individuals with the capacity to make free choices for themselves, and in effect, and usually in law, parents have proxy rights of ownership over their children - which we usually frame in terms of an obligation or responsibility to care for them. So that parents make choices on their own behalf and on behalf of their children is not an issue in itself, but when it comes to abortion we are talking about a different order of choice than choosing a school or deciding what a child will wear or eat etc.

It's a difficult area, with a lot of valid, and often conflicting points to consider. Personally I'm uncomfortable with prospect of termination but at the same time I recognise and accept that it's a choice for parents, and ultimately mothers, not for me. It falls into the realm of a personal choice about what one does with one's own body, over which we all have dominion. Denying autonomous individuals a free choice over their bodies undermines the basic principle that we all have, and should and must have, ownership of ourselves if, that is, we are not to forsake our own right to make similar choices on our own behalves.

When it comes to sex-work, I can see no reason why it cannot comprise a kind of mutual contract entered into freely for the benefit of the parties concerned, essentially no different than purchasing any other kinds of goods or services. That the goods in question is the time of the sex-worker, and that the services are sexual, does not seem particular contentious, as long as it remains a mutual exchange entered into freely by autonomous individuals.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#26  Postby Pebble » Jan 02, 2014 5:34 pm

THWOTH wrote:

When it comes to sex-work, I can see no reason why it cannot comprise a kind of mutual contract entered into freely for the benefit of the parties concerned, essentially no different than purchasing any other goods or services. That the goods in question is the time of the sex-worker, and that the services are sexual, does not seem particular contentious, as long as remains a mutual exchange entered into freely by autonomous individuals.


The problem is that there is a long history of abuse of this particular 'free choice' so creating the structures in which we could guarantee that only those who freely choose to become prostitutes do so, is not so straightforward. I would certainly agree that it is not for others to tell women that they cannot do so, but without adequate safeguards, it is certainly an opportunity for widespread abuse.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#27  Postby scott1328 » Jan 02, 2014 6:38 pm

Pebble wrote:
THWOTH wrote:

When it comes to sex-work, I can see no reason why it cannot comprise a kind of mutual contract entered into freely for the benefit of the parties concerned, essentially no different than purchasing any other goods or services. That the goods in question is the time of the sex-worker, and that the services are sexual, does not seem particular contentious, as long as remains a mutual exchange entered into freely by autonomous individuals.


The problem is that there is a long history of abuse of this particular 'free choice' so creating the structures in which we could guarantee that only those who freely choose to become prostitutes do so, is not so straightforward. I would certainly agree that it is not for others to tell women that they cannot do so, but without adequate safeguards, it is certainly an opportunity for widespread abuse.


The simplest way to ensure the health and safety of sex workers is to legalize and regulate it. Prostitutes are at the mercy of their johns and pimps, because they do not have the police to protect them.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#28  Postby Pebble » Jan 02, 2014 7:14 pm

scott1328 wrote:
Pebble wrote:
THWOTH wrote:

When it comes to sex-work, I can see no reason why it cannot comprise a kind of mutual contract entered into freely for the benefit of the parties concerned, essentially no different than purchasing any other goods or services. That the goods in question is the time of the sex-worker, and that the services are sexual, does not seem particular contentious, as long as remains a mutual exchange entered into freely by autonomous individuals.


The problem is that there is a long history of abuse of this particular 'free choice' so creating the structures in which we could guarantee that only those who freely choose to become prostitutes do so, is not so straightforward. I would certainly agree that it is not for others to tell women that they cannot do so, but without adequate safeguards, it is certainly an opportunity for widespread abuse.


The simplest way to ensure the health and safety of sex workers is to legalize and regulate it. Prostitutes are at the mercy of their johns and pimps, because they do not have the police to protect them.


Certainly that would improve the situation enormously, however it still leaves the thorny issue of economic necessity as opposed to choice.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#29  Postby scott1328 » Jan 02, 2014 7:16 pm

Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
Pebble wrote:
THWOTH wrote:

When it comes to sex-work, I can see no reason why it cannot comprise a kind of mutual contract entered into freely for the benefit of the parties concerned, essentially no different than purchasing any other goods or services. That the goods in question is the time of the sex-worker, and that the services are sexual, does not seem particular contentious, as long as remains a mutual exchange entered into freely by autonomous individuals.


The problem is that there is a long history of abuse of this particular 'free choice' so creating the structures in which we could guarantee that only those who freely choose to become prostitutes do so, is not so straightforward. I would certainly agree that it is not for others to tell women that they cannot do so, but without adequate safeguards, it is certainly an opportunity for widespread abuse.


The simplest way to ensure the health and safety of sex workers is to legalize and regulate it. Prostitutes are at the mercy of their johns and pimps, because they do not have the police to protect them.


Certainly that would improve the situation enormously, however it still leaves the thorny issue of economic necessity as opposed to choice.


True, but how many MacDonald's and Wal-Mart workers are there by choice?
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#30  Postby laklak » Jan 02, 2014 7:20 pm

I haven't supported Vice for a long time. I've thought about dropping in to the new massage parlor, though. I like a decent massage, and these must be really good because they guarantee a happy ending.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#31  Postby Pebble » Jan 02, 2014 9:23 pm

scott1328 wrote:

True, but how many MacDonald's and Wal-Mart workers are there by choice?


I think most would differentiate selling your 'labour' for demeaning wages from selling your 'body' for the same. Doesn't make the former right.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#32  Postby scott1328 » Jan 02, 2014 9:31 pm

Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:

True, but how many MacDonald's and Wal-Mart workers are there by choice?


I think most would differentiate selling your 'labour' for demeaning wages from selling your 'body' for the same. Doesn't make the former right.


I wonder if the difference is due to the general hang-up most people have about sex, especially about women's sexuality.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#33  Postby ADParker » Jan 02, 2014 10:08 pm


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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#34  Postby Pebble » Jan 02, 2014 10:38 pm

scott1328 wrote:
Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:

True, but how many MacDonald's and Wal-Mart workers are there by choice?


I think most would differentiate selling your 'labour' for demeaning wages from selling your 'body' for the same. Doesn't make the former right.


I wonder if the difference is due to the general hang-up most people have about sex, especially about women's sexuality.



Wonder away. If you were offered $4 per hour (40 hr per week) to stack shelves or $20 per hour (8 hr per week the remainder waiting for customers to call) to service aging obese women - what would your choice be?
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#35  Postby Scarlett » Jan 02, 2014 10:42 pm

I'm not sure it's necessarily a hang up about sex, more like a hang up about sex with some of the men who may use prostitutes.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#36  Postby Regina » Jan 02, 2014 10:46 pm

Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
Pebble wrote:
scott1328 wrote:

True, but how many MacDonald's and Wal-Mart workers are there by choice?


I think most would differentiate selling your 'labour' for demeaning wages from selling your 'body' for the same. Doesn't make the former right.


I wonder if the difference is due to the general hang-up most people have about sex, especially about women's sexuality.



Wonder away. If you were offered $4 per hour (40 hr per week) to stack shelves or $20 per hour (8 hr per week the remainder waiting for customers to call) to service aging obese women - what would your choice be?

Or, put slightly differently, does not wanting to service any guy, no matter how repulsive, who expresses the wish to be your customer equal being hung up about sex? In that kind of business you can't refuse your services all too often or else you're out of work soonish.
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#37  Postby THWOTH » Jan 02, 2014 11:07 pm

Pebble wrote:
THWOTH wrote:

When it comes to sex-work, I can see no reason why it cannot comprise a kind of mutual contract entered into freely for the benefit of the parties concerned, essentially no different than purchasing any other goods or services. That the goods in question is the time of the sex-worker, and that the services are sexual, does not seem particular contentious, as long as remains a mutual exchange entered into freely by autonomous individuals.

The problem is that there is a long history of abuse of this particular 'free choice' so creating the structures in which we could guarantee that only those who freely choose to become prostitutes do so, is not so straightforward. I would certainly agree that it is not for others to tell women that they cannot do so, but without adequate safeguards, it is certainly an opportunity for widespread abuse.

I absolutely accept that, and where abuse is present there's obviously no free exchange. But I don't think that the existence of abuse itself (particularly where sex-work is criminalised) means that a mutual contract entered into freely for the benefit of the parties concerned isn't possible - at least if the work can be regularised. The basic principle here though affirms that people have dominion over their own being and have a right to do with their body whatever they will.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#38  Postby laklak » Jan 02, 2014 11:11 pm

Hooker or Loving "age ain't nothing but a number" Wife?

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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#39  Postby McNulty » Jan 03, 2014 3:08 am

Blackadder wrote:if you wish to visit prostitutes then you have to deal with your own feelings of inadequacy and self-loathing. We cannot help you with those. This is not a therapy forum.


Completely irrelevant to the Opening post.
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Re: A true feminist must support Abortion and Vice.

#40  Postby McNulty » Jan 03, 2014 3:12 am

hackenslash wrote:
Support of choice =/= support of particular choice.


I wonder why that might be... Could it be because there is an inherent inequality in the second point?


first point, could anything be even more hypocritical?

second point, agree with the inequality part, hence the choice for the woman to sell the service or not.
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