Bitcoin as a viable currency?

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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#161  Postby Thommo » Mar 22, 2018 4:42 pm

How would you criminalise online child pornography without criminalising some data?
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#162  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 4:48 pm

Thommo wrote:How would you criminalise online child pornography without criminalising some data?

By criminalizing behaviors like producing it or contributing to it being produced. FWIW, I don't think somebody merely having data on their computer should be criminal even if that data depicts an illegal act like child abuse.

Additionally, if the concern is to go after child pornographers, wouldn't a permanent traceable ledger be a good thing?
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#163  Postby Animavore » Mar 22, 2018 4:48 pm

purplerat wrote:
Animavore wrote:I missing why they are permanent and can't just be deleted.

They could be but it would defeat the purpose of the blockchain. What I don't get is why data needs to be criminalized.

What's the purpose of a blockchain?
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#164  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 4:53 pm

Animavore wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Animavore wrote:I missing why they are permanent and can't just be deleted.

They could be but it would defeat the purpose of the blockchain. What I don't get is why data needs to be criminalized.

What's the purpose of a blockchain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchai ... potentials
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#165  Postby Thommo » Mar 22, 2018 4:54 pm

purplerat wrote:
Thommo wrote:How would you criminalise online child pornography without criminalising some data?

By criminalizing behaviors like producing it or contributing to it being produced. FWIW, I don't think somebody merely having data on their computer should be criminal even if that data depicts an illegal act like child abuse.


So owning, viewing and distributing child porn would then be legal and the only people who could be prosecuted would be people it could be proven were involved in making it?

purplerat wrote:Additionally, if the concern is to go after child pornographers, wouldn't a permanent traceable ledger be a good thing?


It's a permanent ledger of bitcoin transactions, not a ledger of people producing child porn, isn't it? The latter would be a good thing and would certainly help investigations, the former, which incidentally provides people with access to viewing child porn would not help, and in my view is certainly not a good thing.
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#166  Postby minininja » Mar 22, 2018 4:56 pm

Animavore wrote:I missing why they are permanent and can't just be deleted.

It's part of the fundamental concept behind blockchain. In order to have a secure distributed ledger records are only added to it if the majority of the network agrees on what is sort of the total sum of all transactions that have gone before it.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#167  Postby minininja » Mar 22, 2018 5:03 pm

purplerat wrote:
minininja wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Animavore wrote:Bitcoin could be illegal because it contains references, links, to child pornography in its blockchain which makes it against the law to store in many countries.

https://www.sciencealert.com/bitcoin-il ... ornography

Whether you think Bitcoin is a viable currency or not I think this highlights potential issues with making data illegal.

I think it more highlights issues with a system to which anyone can contribute and in which all contributions are necessarily permanent and universal.

You mean like the internet?

No, not at all. Certainly with the internet anyone can contribute, but content can be deleted, servers can be shut down, and even if someone somewhere decides to keep and host their own copy of some particular bit of information, everyone who uses the internet is not required to host everything that's ever been on it, locally.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#168  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Thommo wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Thommo wrote:How would you criminalise online child pornography without criminalising some data?

By criminalizing behaviors like producing it or contributing to it being produced. FWIW, I don't think somebody merely having data on their computer should be criminal even if that data depicts an illegal act like child abuse.


So owning, viewing and distributing child porn would then be legal and the only people who could be prosecuted would be people it could be proven were involved in making it?

Ideally so, except maybe the bit about distributing it. There's an argument to be made that distributing it causes harm to the victims but is it something that rises to the level of criminal behavior? It's an interesting question.

Thommo wrote:
purplerat wrote:Additionally, if the concern is to go after child pornographers, wouldn't a permanent traceable ledger be a good thing?


It's a permanent ledger of bitcoin transactions, not a ledger of people producing child porn, isn't it? The latter would be a good thing and would certainly help investigations, the former, which incidentally provides people with access to viewing child porn would not help, and in my view is certainly not a good thing.

If you know where people are viewing child porn that's often a good first step in figuring out how it's being made. My view is that finding out where child porn is coming from is infinitely more important than figuring out who's beating off to it.
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#169  Postby felltoearth » Mar 22, 2018 5:08 pm

I didn’t read the article and correct me if I’m wrong, but the block chain doesn’t actually contain child pornography, it contains a record of financial transaction. I don’t see how anyone would be held liable for that.

Put another way, how liable would I be for a receipt for illegal activity showing up in a second hand book I have purchased?
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#170  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 5:10 pm

minininja wrote:
purplerat wrote:
minininja wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Whether you think Bitcoin is a viable currency or not I think this highlights potential issues with making data illegal.

I think it more highlights issues with a system to which anyone can contribute and in which all contributions are necessarily permanent and universal.

You mean like the internet?

No, not at all. Certainly with the internet anyone can contribute, but content can be deleted, servers can be shut down, and even if someone somewhere decides to keep and host their own copy of some particular bit of information, everyone who uses the internet is not required to host everything that's ever been on it, locally.

In theory that sounds great but you know in reality that's not the way it works. Nothing that gets on the internet is ever truly deleted and while nobody hosts "everything" locally just about everybody connected to the internet is likely hosting something they aren't aware of that may very well be illegal. From that standpoint, the same arguments for criminalizing information applies to both. And it's certainly not like people haven't tried to make the same argument against the internet in general that is now being applied to blockchain.
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#171  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 5:12 pm

felltoearth wrote:I didn’t read the article and correct me if I’m wrong, but the block chain doesn’t actually contain child pornography, it contains a record of financial transaction. I don’t see how anyone would be held liable for that.

Put another way, how liable would I be for a receipt for illegal activity showing up in a second hand book I have purchased?

Or more to the point how liable should users be for metadata stored on their computer related to illegal activity.
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#172  Postby minininja » Mar 22, 2018 5:17 pm

felltoearth wrote:I didn’t read the article and correct me if I’m wrong, but the block chain doesn’t actually contain child pornography, it contains a record of financial transaction. I don’t see how anyone would be held liable for that.

Put another way, how liable would I be for a receipt for illegal activity showing up in a second hand book I have purchased?

No, it's not about financial transactions. Technically financial transactions and cryptocurrencies are only a subset of what blockchain does. It is primarily a record of data. In bitcoin there's a limit to how much non-financial additional data can also be stored, although this might not be the case with other cryptocurrencies which could host images in the blockchain. But bitcoin does include in its data direct links to child abuse images hosted elsewhere, so by using bitcoin you are hosting and distributing those links.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#173  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 5:22 pm

minininja wrote:
felltoearth wrote:I didn’t read the article and correct me if I’m wrong, but the block chain doesn’t actually contain child pornography, it contains a record of financial transaction. I don’t see how anyone would be held liable for that.

Put another way, how liable would I be for a receipt for illegal activity showing up in a second hand book I have purchased?

No, it's not about financial transactions. Technically financial transactions and cryptocurrencies are only a subset of what blockchain does. It is primarily a record of data. In bitcoin there's a limit to how much non-financial additional data can also be stored, although this might not be the case with other cryptocurrencies which could host images in the blockchain. But bitcoin does include in its data direct links to child abuse images hosted elsewhere, so by using bitcoin you are hosting and distributing those links.

That's not at all accurate. Using bitcoin does not require that you run a node or host anything. Using bitcoin can, and I'd venture to guess for most is, as simple as being aware of a small subset of hashes which happen to be valid within the blockchain.

If you want to claim that those who merely use bitcoin are responsible for what is on the blockchain as a whole elsewhere then that's a whole other mess you are wading into.
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#174  Postby minininja » Mar 22, 2018 5:29 pm

purplerat wrote:
minininja wrote:
felltoearth wrote:I didn’t read the article and correct me if I’m wrong, but the block chain doesn’t actually contain child pornography, it contains a record of financial transaction. I don’t see how anyone would be held liable for that.

Put another way, how liable would I be for a receipt for illegal activity showing up in a second hand book I have purchased?

No, it's not about financial transactions. Technically financial transactions and cryptocurrencies are only a subset of what blockchain does. It is primarily a record of data. In bitcoin there's a limit to how much non-financial additional data can also be stored, although this might not be the case with other cryptocurrencies which could host images in the blockchain. But bitcoin does include in its data direct links to child abuse images hosted elsewhere, so by using bitcoin you are hosting and distributing those links.

That's not at all accurate. Using bitcoin does not require that you run a node or host anything. Using bitcoin can, and I'd venture to guess for most is, as simple as being aware of a small subset of hashes which happen to be valid within the blockchain.

If you want to claim that those who merely use bitcoin are responsible for what is on the blockchain as a whole elsewhere that's a whole other mess you are wading into.

Ok, I've slightly simplified by leaving out the fact that every individual doesn't have to host the whole thing, but that can only work if there are individuals that do host the whole thing. You're just shifting the problem onto someone else and the basic point still stands.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#175  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 5:36 pm

minininja wrote:
purplerat wrote:
minininja wrote:
felltoearth wrote:I didn’t read the article and correct me if I’m wrong, but the block chain doesn’t actually contain child pornography, it contains a record of financial transaction. I don’t see how anyone would be held liable for that.

Put another way, how liable would I be for a receipt for illegal activity showing up in a second hand book I have purchased?

No, it's not about financial transactions. Technically financial transactions and cryptocurrencies are only a subset of what blockchain does. It is primarily a record of data. In bitcoin there's a limit to how much non-financial additional data can also be stored, although this might not be the case with other cryptocurrencies which could host images in the blockchain. But bitcoin does include in its data direct links to child abuse images hosted elsewhere, so by using bitcoin you are hosting and distributing those links.

That's not at all accurate. Using bitcoin does not require that you run a node or host anything. Using bitcoin can, and I'd venture to guess for most is, as simple as being aware of a small subset of hashes which happen to be valid within the blockchain.

If you want to claim that those who merely use bitcoin are responsible for what is on the blockchain as a whole elsewhere that's a whole other mess you are wading into.

Ok, I've slightly simplified by leaving out the fact that every individual doesn't have to host the whole thing, but that can only work if there are individuals that do host the whole thing. You're just shifting the problem onto someone else and the basic point still stands.

It's not the same basic point unless you think that having money in a bank that engages in illegal activity like money laundering makes you complicit in that crime.
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#176  Postby minininja » Mar 22, 2018 5:40 pm

purplerat wrote:
minininja wrote:
purplerat wrote:
minininja wrote:
No, it's not about financial transactions. Technically financial transactions and cryptocurrencies are only a subset of what blockchain does. It is primarily a record of data. In bitcoin there's a limit to how much non-financial additional data can also be stored, although this might not be the case with other cryptocurrencies which could host images in the blockchain. But bitcoin does include in its data direct links to child abuse images hosted elsewhere, so by using bitcoin you are hosting and distributing those links.

That's not at all accurate. Using bitcoin does not require that you run a node or host anything. Using bitcoin can, and I'd venture to guess for most is, as simple as being aware of a small subset of hashes which happen to be valid within the blockchain.

If you want to claim that those who merely use bitcoin are responsible for what is on the blockchain as a whole elsewhere that's a whole other mess you are wading into.

Ok, I've slightly simplified by leaving out the fact that every individual doesn't have to host the whole thing, but that can only work if there are individuals that do host the whole thing. You're just shifting the problem onto someone else and the basic point still stands.

It's not the same basic point unless you think that having money in a bank that engages in illegal activity like money laundering makes you complicit in that crime.

For that analogy to work all banks would have to be committing the crime and they would never be able to stop committing it. If that were the case I'd also suggest that system was fundamentally flawed.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#177  Postby newolder » Mar 22, 2018 5:44 pm

...
As the researchers note, “Since all blockchain data is downloaded and persistently stored by users, they are liable for any objectionable content added to the blockchain by others,” which is likely true under many countries’ laws. The researchers continue, “Consequently, it would be illegal to participate in a blockchain-based system as soon as it contains illegal content.”
...

gizmodo source
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#178  Postby purplerat » Mar 22, 2018 5:45 pm

newolder wrote:
...
As the researchers note, “Since all blockchain data is downloaded and persistently stored by users, they are liable for any objectionable content added to the blockchain by others,” which is likely true under many countries’ laws. The researchers continue, “Consequently, it would be illegal to participate in a blockchain-based system as soon as it contains illegal content.”
...

gizmodo source

Again though, that could be applied to all metadata that any internet user downloads.
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#179  Postby minininja » Mar 22, 2018 5:49 pm

purplerat wrote:
newolder wrote:
...
As the researchers note, “Since all blockchain data is downloaded and persistently stored by users, they are liable for any objectionable content added to the blockchain by others,” which is likely true under many countries’ laws. The researchers continue, “Consequently, it would be illegal to participate in a blockchain-based system as soon as it contains illegal content.”
...

gizmodo source

Again though, that could be applied to all metadata that any internet user downloads.

Precisely what metadata?
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Bitcoin as a viable currency?

#180  Postby newolder » Mar 22, 2018 5:49 pm

purplerat wrote:
newolder wrote:
...
As the researchers note, “Since all blockchain data is downloaded and persistently stored by users, they are liable for any objectionable content added to the blockchain by others,” which is likely true under many countries’ laws. The researchers continue, “Consequently, it would be illegal to participate in a blockchain-based system as soon as it contains illegal content.”
...

gizmodo source

Again though, that could be applied to all metadata that any internet user downloads.

I should have quoted post #173, to which this is relevant, in my post.
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