Colour

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Re: Colour

#501  Postby crank » Mar 20, 2017 11:13 pm

scott1328 wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
scott1328 wrote:In my highly variable opinion on this topic, today at this minute, the two statements are equivalent.



Then you are talking about your perception, not a property inherent in the leaves. :thumbup:

But there is a property inherent in the leaves which strongly influences my perceptions. And not just my own perceptions, but rather a very sizable majority of the population will agree with my perception of the leaves.

Sounds like cannabis.
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Re: Colour

#502  Postby SpeedOfSound » Mar 26, 2017 11:18 am

GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:I'm merely here to explain why it is that our invented knowledge is just a mirror of the order present amidst the qualities of our experiences. It is essential that you all understand this if you want to delve into the really important stuff, as I have.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's not JUST our experiences. the world affects us in all sorts of ways that we do not experience (at least we can reasonably infer that it does, and you certainly cannot refute that. You have admitted there must be more to the world than our of it)

What delving you have done seems to have led you astray to the point you are clueless about the world. If you think only in terms of mind-first and experience you must be missing the big picture.


I am working on something and this post seems to draw out it's substance most well. We are forever adrift in a mistake (my label and opinion) of attempting to separate out out two categories from what can only be one. Those are: the category of what we experience, and the category of what affects us. Leads to all sorts of drifting confusion over where the color red is.

In a similar vein is the idea of the unconscious vs those things that happen behind our backs.
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Re: Colour

#503  Postby romansh » Mar 26, 2017 9:15 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
I am working on something and this post seems to draw out it's substance most well. We are forever adrift in a mistake (my label and opinion) of attempting to separate out out two categories from what can only be one. Those are: the category of what we experience, and the category of what affects us. Leads to all sorts of drifting confusion over where the color red is.

In a similar vein is the idea of the unconscious vs those things that happen behind our backs.


Indeed. The original cause of this thread was the comparison of [the sense of] colour to the sense of morality.
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Re: Colour

#504  Postby SpeedOfSound » Mar 26, 2017 10:06 pm

I missed that discussion. Is that a good thing? Where was it?
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Re: Colour

#505  Postby romansh » Mar 26, 2017 10:44 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:I missed that discussion. Is that a good thing? Where was it?


Is it a good thing? I don't know ... are there good and bad arrangements for matter?

This is a derail thread from
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philo ... l#p2377858
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Re: Colour

#506  Postby THWOTH » Mar 27, 2017 10:44 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:I'm merely here to explain why it is that our invented knowledge is just a mirror of the order present amidst the qualities of our experiences. It is essential that you all understand this if you want to delve into the really important stuff, as I have.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's not JUST our experiences. the world affects us in all sorts of ways that we do not experience (at least we can reasonably infer that it does, and you certainly cannot refute that. You have admitted there must be more to the world than our of it)

What delving you have done seems to have led you astray to the point you are clueless about the world. If you think only in terms of mind-first and experience you must be missing the big picture.


I am working on something and this post seems to draw out it's substance most well. We are forever adrift in a mistake (my label and opinion) of attempting to separate out out two categories from what can only be one. Those are: the category of what we experience, and the category of what affects us. Leads to all sorts of drifting confusion over where the color red is.

In a similar vein is the idea of the unconscious vs those things that happen behind our backs.

You're such an incorrigible goat. :shifty:
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Re: Colour

#507  Postby newolder » Mar 27, 2017 10:49 am

You mean those goats that yell like humans?
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Re: Colour

#508  Postby SpeedOfSound » Mar 27, 2017 12:14 pm

THWOTH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:I'm merely here to explain why it is that our invented knowledge is just a mirror of the order present amidst the qualities of our experiences. It is essential that you all understand this if you want to delve into the really important stuff, as I have.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's not JUST our experiences. the world affects us in all sorts of ways that we do not experience (at least we can reasonably infer that it does, and you certainly cannot refute that. You have admitted there must be more to the world than our of it)

What delving you have done seems to have led you astray to the point you are clueless about the world. If you think only in terms of mind-first and experience you must be missing the big picture.


I am working on something and this post seems to draw out it's substance most well. We are forever adrift in a mistake (my label and opinion) of attempting to separate out out two categories from what can only be one. Those are: the category of what we experience, and the category of what affects us. Leads to all sorts of drifting confusion over where the color red is.

In a similar vein is the idea of the unconscious vs those things that happen behind our backs.

You're such an incorrigible OLD goat. :shifty:

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Re: Colour

#509  Postby archibald » Apr 26, 2017 12:11 am

romansh wrote:Is a double-decker London bus red, or is it what we call the perception of the photochemical reactions and transfer of charge down the optic nerves that has been processed in the brain "red"?


Hm. Insufficient skepticism noted.




Hint: there arguably isn't even a bus.
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Re: Colour

#510  Postby romansh » Apr 26, 2017 12:15 am

archibald wrote:
Hm. Insufficient skepticism noted.
Hint: there arguably isn't even a bus.

I think I get what you are saying ... not that there is a you or an I in that sense?

But you, I, the redness of the bus and the bus itself are illusory in the sense they are not what they seem.

Is this what you mean?
In an illusory manner of course/
;)
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Re: Colour

#511  Postby archibald » Apr 26, 2017 12:18 am

romansh wrote:
archibald wrote:
Hm. Insufficient skepticism noted.
Hint: there arguably isn't even a bus.

I think I get what you are saying ... not that there is a you or an I in that sense?

But you, I, the redness of the bus and the bus itself are illusory in the sense they are not what they seem.

Is this what you mean?
In an illusory manner of course/
;)



Yes or no, depending on a particular definition of illusion.

Or alternatively, definitely yes, since everything we perceive qualifies as an illusion.
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Re: Colour

#512  Postby archibald » Apr 26, 2017 12:20 am

We must surely resort to considering the relative utility of such things.
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Re: Colour

#513  Postby romansh » Apr 26, 2017 12:21 am

archibald wrote:
Yes or no, depending on a particular definition of illusion.

Or alternatively, definitely yes, since everything we perceive qualifies as an illusion.

In the sense that things are not a they seem (to perhaps varying degrees)
OK
Now what ... devout agnosticism?
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Re: Colour

#514  Postby archibald » Apr 26, 2017 12:22 am

romansh wrote:Now what ... devout agnosticism?


Definition?
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Re: Colour

#515  Postby romansh » Apr 26, 2017 12:24 am

archibald wrote:We must surely resort to considering the relative utility of such things.

I have no problem calling an appropriate bus red ... sure there is "utility" in that.
Insisting that it is actually physically red when the evidence does not point in that direction ... well, I see know utility in that.
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Re: Colour

#516  Postby romansh » Apr 26, 2017 12:27 am

archibald wrote:
romansh wrote:Now what ... devout agnosticism?


Definition?

Presuming agnosticism?
I have to laugh bearing in mind recent constructors ... without knowledge ... certainty if you like.
Not just god but phenomena in general.

Did I answer your question?
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Re: Colour

#517  Postby archibald » Apr 26, 2017 12:28 am

romansh wrote:
archibald wrote:
romansh wrote:Now what ... devout agnosticism?


Definition?

Presuming agnosticism?
I have to laugh bearing in mind recent constructors ... without knowledge ... certainty if you like.
Not just god but phenomena in general.

Did I answer your question?


What is 'agnosticism'?
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Re: Colour

#518  Postby romansh » Apr 26, 2017 12:33 am

Without knowledge,

But if your point is there is a regress of definitions

I understand
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Re: Colour

#519  Postby archibald » Apr 26, 2017 12:36 am

No I was half hoping you'd make some sort of statement about things being unknowable, so that I could pounce by pointing out that the accuracy of that statement would itself be unknowable.

Drat.
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Re: Colour

#520  Postby romansh » Apr 26, 2017 12:38 am

archibald wrote:No I was half hoping you'd make some sort of statement about things being unknowable, so that I could pounce by pointing out that the accuracy of that statement would itself be unknowable.

Drat.

:lol:

That would be militant agnosticism ... I don't know and neither do you
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