Examples of Sexism that Aren't

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Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#1  Postby horacerumpole » Oct 06, 2011 6:34 pm

“Men-ups!” is a humorous project by photographer Rion Sabean featuring men doing pin-up-style poses. It’s interesting how much more absurd some poses instantly look when they’re being done by men. http://www.petapixel.com/2011/10/04/men ... ale-poses/

This is supposed to be some example of sexism in our culture. Look how silly men look as pin-up men, posing in positions women use in pin up calendars.

Well, of course, because men posing in feminine postures are attractive to almost nobody. Women like to look at men posing in manly postures. Men like to see women in feminine postures.

This is similar to the "if they dressed male superheroes up like Wonder Woman it would look weird" motif in feminism. I mean, men are portrayed in revealing, stupid looking costumes too.

I think these are often presented as examples of sexism, but I really don't think they are. Anyone agree?
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#2  Postby Grace » Jan 30, 2012 4:39 am

Men used to look funny with children in backpacks, but we all got used to it and now it seems normal.

Here's a funny look at male and female differences: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygW0lV1yvU
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#3  Postby Saim » Jan 30, 2012 7:40 am

When you think about it, it kind of looks absurd when women do it. It's just we've been conditioned to think that it's not. There's nothing inherently feminine about these poses.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#4  Postby horacerumpole » Jan 30, 2012 2:08 pm

Saim wrote:When you think about it, it kind of looks absurd when women do it. It's just we've been conditioned to think that it's not. There's nothing inherently feminine about these poses.


No, but one does not need to be "conditioned" to like to look at women posed "seductively" or posed to highlight sexually attractive features. Women's poses, whatever you call them, whether feminine or sexually provocative, or whatever, are done to highlight breasts and buttocks and other things that are thought to be sexually attractive. While there are certainly fashions in this area, it's as much biology as anything else.

Like, what is the purpose of lipstick and blush? On the surface, it's so women can look prettier. But, underneath we find that what they highlight are sexual aspects -- flushed checks -- full, deepened color lips - it's highlighting indicators of sexual excitement.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#5  Postby horacerumpole » Jan 30, 2012 2:09 pm

Grace wrote:Men used to look funny with children in backpacks, but we all got used to it and now it seems normal.

Here's a funny look at male and female differences: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vygW0lV1yvU



Men still look funny with children in backpacks...everyone looks funny with children in backpacks... lol :smoke:


An oldie but a goodie -- how men and women shower... [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkmorygrKoM[/youtube]

Or, the more factually accurate version (watch to the end): [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs7TZMDJYqU[/youtube] :lol:
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#6  Postby Saim » Jan 30, 2012 11:42 pm

horacerumpole wrote:
Saim wrote:
Like, what is the purpose of lipstick and blush? On the surface, it's so women can look prettier. But, underneath we find that what they highlight are sexual aspects -- flushed checks -- full, deepened color lips - it's highlighting indicators of sexual excitement.

I'm not disputing your thesis, I'm just wondering - don't men also get flushed cheeks? Aren't thicker lips also attractive on men? And even if it weren't, wouldn't men have their own way of highlighting said "excitement"? Do they? And if not, why not?
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#7  Postby horacerumpole » Feb 01, 2012 4:14 pm

Saim wrote:
horacerumpole wrote:
Saim wrote:
Like, what is the purpose of lipstick and blush? On the surface, it's so women can look prettier. But, underneath we find that what they highlight are sexual aspects -- flushed checks -- full, deepened color lips - it's highlighting indicators of sexual excitement.

I'm not disputing your thesis, I'm just wondering - don't men also get flushed cheeks? Aren't thicker lips also attractive on men? And even if it weren't, wouldn't men have their own way of highlighting said "excitement"? Do they? And if not, why not?


Because women are attracted to a big....thick... wallet...

Image
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#8  Postby quas » Feb 19, 2012 8:03 am

horacerumpole wrote:This is similar to the "if they dressed male superheroes up like Wonder Woman it would look weird" motif in feminism. I mean, men are portrayed in revealing, stupid looking costumes too.


Yeah, like how superman wears his tights so tight. :mrgreen:
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those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#9  Postby Saim » Feb 19, 2012 10:24 pm

horacerumpole wrote:
Saim wrote:
horacerumpole wrote:
Saim wrote:
Like, what is the purpose of lipstick and blush? On the surface, it's so women can look prettier. But, underneath we find that what they highlight are sexual aspects -- flushed checks -- full, deepened color lips - it's highlighting indicators of sexual excitement.

I'm not disputing your thesis, I'm just wondering - don't men also get flushed cheeks? Aren't thicker lips also attractive on men? And even if it weren't, wouldn't men have their own way of highlighting said "excitement"? Do they? And if not, why not?


Because women are attracted to a big....thick... wallet...

Image

Didn't answer my question at all. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

(And I think I should note that just being next to each other in a photo doesn't make you a couple.)
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#10  Postby horacerumpole » Feb 22, 2012 9:49 pm

Of course not, but the point was that men tend to be attracted to physical appearance moreso than women, and women tend to list things like humor and power as attractive qualities first, whereas men rank looks higher on the list. That would seem to explain why men compete with each other less on the physical spectrum than women do.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#11  Postby Paul G » Feb 22, 2012 10:21 pm

Off topic: That site is great.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#12  Postby Teshi » Jun 11, 2012 11:20 am

Did you consider that male stereotypical postures are often more powerful than female postures? A man flexing his muscles in a military uniform (even missing his top) is quite a different image than the pose of any of the men in the photographs you linked to.

It's true that women and men are both sexualised when posing for photographs, but it's also true that aside from dominatrix-like images* women usually take passive, absurd or cutesy poses whereas men take more powerful ones. We call these "feminine" and "masculine".

Sexy Firemen Photos. I don't see a single image that isn't presenting these men as powerful, dominating, aggressive. None of these are absurd or childish. The most absurd/submissive one is a row of firefighters in their underwear wearing masks, but even they are standing in a powerful way.

What makes a feminine pose feminine or a masculine pose masculine and is that a fair, non-sexist definition? What clothes are chosen and how are they worn? What features does the photographer emphasise and how are these features presented?

Regardless of whether these poses are chosen to be titillating to men and women, there is a clear difference in how men and women are presented and how they learn to see themselves idealised. Stereotypical pin-up men are usually idealised as powerful, pin-up women as absurd, cutesy or submissive.

That is what people find sexist.

* Whose existence as a subculture doesn't do anything to convince me that women get a fair chance.

I do want to note that not all fashion/sexual photography is like this and there are images that portray men and women similarly. However, we are talking about the stereotyped pin-up world which frequently leaks out into the pages of fashion magazines in terms of how women pose.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#13  Postby horacerumpole » Jun 18, 2012 5:53 pm

Sure, but the poses in the pictures didn't come first, and human sexuality second. The sexuality came first, and the pictures are taken that way because that is what people find sexually titillating. A strong powerful man flexing is sexually attractive -- a mushy, demure man, looking "vulnerable" doesn't, and I doubt many women would disagree. Similarly, women posing in ways that accentuate their curves, perk their breasts, and give the illusion of longer legs is sexually attractive. The pictures reflect that. No matter how much someone would be told that a morbidly obese person in a burlap sack with a scowl on her face was sexy, almost nobody would find it so.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#14  Postby tuco » Jun 18, 2012 7:42 pm

If sexism is mostly about discrimination based on gender then depicting women in the poses mentioned on billboards for example with intention to sell a product is sexism indeed. Though its men who are being discriminated. Same goes, in many cases, for receptionists, kindergarten teachers, or hostesses where men are in much tougher position to get such jobs and keep them.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#15  Postby horacerumpole » Jun 18, 2012 9:24 pm

tuco wrote:If sexism is mostly about discrimination based on gender then depicting women in the poses mentioned on billboards for example with intention to sell a product is sexism indeed. Though its men who are being discriminated. Same goes, in many cases, for receptionists, kindergarten teachers, or hostesses where men are in much tougher position to get such jobs and keep them.


I'm sexist in my dating habits. I discriminate against men. and, I don't apologize for it for a second. :smoke:
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#16  Postby orpheus » Jun 19, 2012 1:23 am

:popcorn:

(Uncle Orph'sTM popcorn - "for those of discriminating taste" )
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#17  Postby DougC » Jun 19, 2012 1:27 am

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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#18  Postby Teshi » Jun 23, 2012 12:34 pm

Sure, but the poses in the pictures didn't come first, and human sexuality second. The sexuality came first, and the pictures are taken that way because that is what people find sexually titillating.


So men are sexy when they're powerful and women when they're not and that's all that matters. Have I understood that correctly?

Ah, I just love being female.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#19  Postby Regina » Jun 23, 2012 12:52 pm

Teshi wrote:
Sure, but the poses in the pictures didn't come first, and human sexuality second. The sexuality came first, and the pictures are taken that way because that is what people find sexually titillating.


So men are sexy when they're powerful and women when they're not and that's all that matters. Have I understood that correctly?

Ah, I just love being female.

Horace said that these traits are sexually attractive, nothing more.
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Re: Examples of Sexism that Aren't

#20  Postby Teshi » Jun 23, 2012 2:00 pm

I understood. It doesn't improve it for me, really. The anthropological implication is pretty clear. I'm not saying it's Horace's opinion, but the implication is enough to annoy me.

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