Free Will

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Re: Free Will

#6501  Postby archibald » Feb 17, 2017 1:43 pm

DavidMcC wrote:What us it with you, free will and Jesus?
Are you one of those people who associate the issue of free will with religious nuttery? If so, please remember that I use the phrase in a rational way, not a religious one.


Religious nuts? Aargh. lay off with the raunchy imagery there, David, we're not all as Jesus-porn-obsessed as you and scott. It's very distracting, especially when I'm trying to keep my blood pressure down.
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Re: Free Will

#6502  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 17, 2017 1:57 pm

archibald wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:What us it with you, free will and Jesus?
Are you one of those people who associate the issue of free will with religious nuttery? If so, please remember that I use the phrase in a rational way, not a religious one.


Religious nuts? Aargh. lay off with the raunchy imagery there, David, we're not all as Jesus-porn-obsessed as you and scott. It's very distracting, especially when I'm trying to keep my blood pressure down.

Nice one, archi! Obviously, I didn't mean that kind of nut! Thought it was obvious, but it seems that nothing can be taken for granted around here!
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Re: Free Will

#6503  Postby romansh » Feb 18, 2017 12:46 am

romansh wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Well I am glad a moderator finally stepped in and put a stop to archibalds 36 hours and11 pages of insults, lies, misrepresentation, and generally assholish behavior.


Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.
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Re: Free Will

#6504  Postby romansh » Feb 18, 2017 12:58 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
romansh wrote:
Have I not been clear on what I mean by could not do otherwise?


It makes a difference, too, whether this is in the first (or second or third) person. "Could have" expresses freedom, and "could not have" expresses lack thereof. Do you want to say, "It's more than a feeling..."? Rock on, romansh!


Fair enough Cito

If our actions my, yours and Archi's (that's first, second and third person) are determined by our choices, which are a result of our determined deliberations, which are shaped by our determined experiences and our determined brain structure, and in turn if the whole caboodle is determined by the aggregate of quantum phenomena that passes as our environment how could I, you or Archie have done differently?
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Re: Free Will

#6505  Postby jamest » Feb 18, 2017 1:29 am

I think that Cito strives to be a modern version of Plato's Socrates. Some guy who moans cleverly about everything but never brings anything positive to the table. Socrates was a pain in the arse, though essential reading, but Cito is not. Don't ever let him bully you.
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Re: Free Will

#6506  Postby GrahamH » Feb 18, 2017 7:03 am

romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Well I am glad a moderator finally stepped in and put a stop to archibalds 36 hours and11 pages of insults, lies, misrepresentation, and generally assholish behavior.


Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


You seem to be treating the possibility of no free will as if people will behave In simplistic predictable ways. Why would the interaction look any different, whether we have free will or not? You don't know how someone will respond. You don't know how you will react. You have no reference for your "do otherwise" until it's been done, as it is. There is no otherwise, but there is surprise.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#6507  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 18, 2017 7:45 am

romansh wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
romansh wrote:
Have I not been clear on what I mean by could not do otherwise?


It makes a difference, too, whether this is in the first (or second or third) person. "Could have" expresses freedom, and "could not have" expresses lack thereof. Do you want to say, "It's more than a feeling..."? Rock on, romansh!


Fair enough Cito

If our actions my, yours and Archi's (that's first, second and third person) are determined by our choices, which are a result of our determined deliberations, which are shaped by our determined experiences and our determined brain structure, and in turn if the whole caboodle is determined by the aggregate of quantum phenomena that passes as our environment how could I, you or Archie have done differently?


When you can motivate anyone to answer who's not already obsessed with answering it, you'll receive an answer. The details you include in your question are what suggest to me that you're pursuing it obsessively, because you keep reiterating them as if they were the only aspects available to consider, implying a banally mechanistic view of human behavior. Until you gain some insight into what's motivating your obsessive campaign to view humans as mechanisms, your question will be giving away your conclusion until the cows come home. Resolve that, or find something else to think about. I've given you a head start: We already know a great deal more about human behavior than your reductio ad absurdum admits. If we're going to reduce the human condition to an absurdity, authors like Samuel Beckett have been there before you, and much more poignantly. On the other side is an equally-grand body of literature honoring the doomed human quest for perfection or sanctity.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#6508  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 18, 2017 7:54 am

GrahamH wrote:
romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Well I am glad a moderator finally stepped in and put a stop to archibalds 36 hours and11 pages of insults, lies, misrepresentation, and generally assholish behavior.


Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


You seem to be treating the possibility of no free will as if people will behave In simplistic predictable ways. Why would the interaction look any different, whether we have free will or not? You don't know how someone will respond. You don't know how you will react. You have no reference for your "do otherwise" until it's been done, as it is. There is no otherwise, but there is surprise.


You know how it goes. In the northern hemisphere, on days of the week ending in 'y' (in English), I treat people as having free will. On days of the week containing an 'a', I treat people as mechanisms. South of the equator, I do exactly the opposite, just to be different.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Free Will

#6509  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 18, 2017 11:48 am

GrahamH wrote:
romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Well I am glad a moderator finally stepped in and put a stop to archibalds 36 hours and11 pages of insults, lies, misrepresentation, and generally assholish behavior.


Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


You seem to be treating the possibility of no free will as if people will behave In simplistic predictable ways. Why would the interaction look any different, whether we have free will or not? You don't know how someone will respond. You don't know how you will react. You have no reference for your "do otherwise" until it's been done, as it is. There is no otherwise, but there is surprise.

How do you square that with your previous claim that lack of free will means that people have no choice of options?
May The Voice be with you!
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Re: Free Will

#6510  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 18, 2017 12:00 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:

Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


You seem to be treating the possibility of no free will as if people will behave In simplistic predictable ways. Why would the interaction look any different, whether we have free will or not? You don't know how someone will respond. You don't know how you will react. You have no reference for your "do otherwise" until it's been done, as it is. There is no otherwise, but there is surprise.


You know how it goes. In the northern hemisphere, on days of the week ending in 'y' (in English), I treat people as having free will. On days of the week containing an 'a', I treat people as mechanisms. South of the equator, I do exactly the opposite, just to be different.

Now that I am retired, I have more free will. Being employed took away quite a few options, except on days off.
May The Voice be with you!
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Re: Free Will

#6511  Postby archibald » Feb 18, 2017 12:28 pm

romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Well I am glad a moderator finally stepped in and put a stop to archibalds 36 hours and11 pages of insults, lies, misrepresentation, and generally assholish behavior.


Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


Pretty much what others have said. Taking the view that people have not got free will does not seem to mean that I can easily stop adopting the Intentional Stance, unfortunately, yet. :)
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
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Re: Free Will

#6512  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 18, 2017 12:36 pm

archibald wrote:
romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Well I am glad a moderator finally stepped in and put a stop to archibalds 36 hours and11 pages of insults, lies, misrepresentation, and generally assholish behavior.


Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


Pretty much what others have said. Taking the view that people have not got free will does not seem to mean that I can easily stop adopting the Intentional Stance, unfortunately, yet. :)

So, you are hoping to achieve your ambition of not having any free will, and shunning that embarrassing intentional stance?
May The Voice be with you!
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Re: Free Will

#6513  Postby GrahamH » Feb 18, 2017 12:38 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:

Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


You seem to be treating the possibility of no free will as if people will behave In simplistic predictable ways. Why would the interaction look any different, whether we have free will or not? You don't know how someone will respond. You don't know how you will react. You have no reference for your "do otherwise" until it's been done, as it is. There is no otherwise, but there is surprise.

How do you square that with your previous claim that lack of free will means that people have no choice of options?

That's not the claim. The claim is that the choice you make is determined by factors other your "free will". Obviously there are apparent options and experience of choosing either way.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Free Will

#6514  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 18, 2017 12:51 pm

GrahamH wrote:... Obviously there are apparent options and experience of choosing either way.

So, you think people just imagine that they have options, and imagine that they are choosing? Pardon me, but that's plain weird.
Last edited by DavidMcC on Feb 18, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Will

#6515  Postby archibald » Feb 18, 2017 1:51 pm

The options are 'apparent' in the sense that you do not get to choose them freely, so they are not 'really' options, in that sense. In another sense they are real, a choice between a tomato or an apple for instance. There are choices, they get made, but not freely, that's all.
Last edited by archibald on Feb 18, 2017 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Will

#6516  Postby scott1328 » Feb 18, 2017 1:53 pm

archibald wrote:
romansh wrote:
romansh wrote:
scott1328 wrote:Well I am glad a moderator finally stepped in and put a stop to archibalds 36 hours and11 pages of insults, lies, misrepresentation, and generally assholish behavior.


Well I am puzzled by archi's behaviour. I will press him on that, should he return from his suspension.
But having said that he could not have done otherwise.


What really surprised me Archi was that your recent interaction with Graham was totally consistent with you believing Graham had free will. Now I understand that you could not do otherwise, but why would the interaction look like from the outside that you thought Graham could do otherwise?

Just curious.


Pretty much what others have said. Taking the view that people have not got free will does not seem to mean that I can easily stop adopting the Intentional Stance, unfortunately, yet. :)


People who successfully drop the intentional stance are rightly called sociopaths and should be locked up.
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Re: Free Will

#6517  Postby archibald » Feb 18, 2017 2:02 pm

scott1328 wrote:People who successfully drop the intentional stance are rightly called sociopaths and should be locked up.


Well that's contentious, given that autism is often viewed as a disruption of the capacity to adopt the Intentional Stance.

However, I might better have said that I can't easily stop adopting the Personal Stance or better still the view that others have free will. That would have been more accurate.

As for sociopaths, it has been said that they lack the Phenomenal Stance, not the Intentional one, that they 'read' intention but not affective states (empathy/emotion).

But my guess is that the labels overlap.
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Re: Free Will

#6518  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 18, 2017 2:14 pm

archibald wrote:The options are 'apparent' in the sense that you do not get to choose them freely, so they are not 'really' options, in that sense. In another sense they are real, a choice between a tomato or an apple for instance. There are choices, they get made, but not freely, that's all.

I note that you have given a trivial example, but what about choosing a college or university when you get good enough grades to get offers from several.
I say this because I note years ago that no-free-willers like to play this particular gambit.
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Re: Free Will

#6519  Postby archibald » Feb 18, 2017 2:17 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
archibald wrote:The options are 'apparent' in the sense that you do not get to choose them freely, so they are not 'really' options, in that sense. In another sense they are real, a choice between a tomato or an apple for instance. There are choices, they get made, but not freely, that's all.

I note that you have given a trivial example, but what about choosing a college or university when you get good enough grades to get offers from several.
I say this because I note years ago that no-free-willers like to play this particular gambit.


Thanks David but we've already talked about this, you and I. My view is that it makes no difference, since every single moment of deliberations is as caused/determined or random as for any other choice, even if the choices are deliberated over. I don't see how it can be otherwise. More deliberation does not mean free deliberation. In any case, at some point, it all comes down to a final, simple choice at the very last moment.
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Re: Free Will

#6520  Postby DavidMcC » Feb 18, 2017 2:24 pm

archibald wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
archibald wrote:The options are 'apparent' in the sense that you do not get to choose them freely, so they are not 'really' options, in that sense. In another sense they are real, a choice between a tomato or an apple for instance. There are choices, they get made, but not freely, that's all.

I note that you have given a trivial example, but what about choosing a college or university when you get good enough grades to get offers from several.
I say this because I note years ago that no-free-willers like to play this particular gambit.


Thanks David but we've already talked about this, you and I. My view is that it makes no difference, since every single moment of deliberations is as caused/determined or random as for any other choice, even if the choices are deliberated over. I don't see how it can be otherwise. More deliberation does not mean free deliberation. In any case, at some point, it all comes down to a final, simple choice at the very last moment.

I know we have already talked about this, but you never gave a satisfactory answer, and this is just the same. I asked for an example. I also do not accept that "it's always a simple choice at the last moment", as if the thinking behind the choice was mysteriously abandoned "at the last moment".
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