Sendraks wrote:I have friends out in Ireland who, having lived most of their lives in Dublin, have moved out into the back of beyond. They described it as being very much like "craggy island" partly in jest, partly because the social attitudes expressed there were jarred with what they were used in the "big city." Then you'll find the same in the UK with people who live their lives in London and then get exposed to attitudes in the north of England. I'm not immune to the reality that the capital of a nation tends to be socially ahead of the rest.

Where would be the evidence for this in the UK? If you look at voting patterns, you'll find that people in the North of England, Scotland and Wales typically vote for more socially progressive parties than large areas of London. I'd agree that London is more progressive than a lot of the areas immediately surrounding it, but the North of England generally? I can't see any reason to think that. I see evidence that cities are a bit more progressive than rural areas, but not that the capital city is in any way special (although it's probably true that the economic hub of any country has more foreign residents, and therefore enjoys more progressive attitudes towards foreigners).

Animavore wrote:

I'm With Stupid wrote:

Animavore wrote:The Church have almost no relevance to today's society. They are dying out and their role is mostly ceremonial now. When the abortion referendum came out in the 90s the 'No' vote just barely won. The next time, and there are calls for another referendum, they won't win.

Yeah, but surely the fact that you haven't been given a referendum and politicians don't feel that they can just go ahead and do it is testament to the power the church still holds in Irish politics? I wouldn't even say the Catholic church has no relevance in UK politics, never mind Irish. The Catholic church still runs 90% of your primary schools ffs, and a good number of the rest are protestant. It's obviously getting better, but there's a long way to go.

I'm not sure why politicians won't go ahead and do it. And the Catholic church running our schools doesn't mean anything much. They still have to go by the governement standards for education. They can't teach that homosexuality is wrong, or that sex outside of marriage or contraception is wrong, and have to give equal time to all religions. They're Catholic schools in name only.

I got my statistics from this website, where it quotes one man claiming that religion frequently invades other subjects, to even if you opt out of religious bullshit for your children, you still have it frequently popping up in other classes. Obviously it would vary from school to school. I also went to a Catholic school where it really was a professionally run outfit that didn't ram religion down your throat. But it wouldn't surprise me if all Catholic schools aren't equal.

Animavore wrote:
The Church have almost no relevance to today's society.

Do you think the preamble to you constitution will be removed in the foreseeable future? That would be a great step forward.

I'm With Stupid wrote:

Animavore wrote:The Church have almost no relevance to today's society. They are dying out and their role is mostly ceremonial now. When the abortion referendum came out in the 90s the 'No' vote just barely won. The next time, and there are calls for another referendum, they won't win.

Yeah, but surely the fact that you haven't been given a referendum and politicians don't feel that they can just go ahead and do it is testament to the power the church still holds in Irish politics? I wouldn't even say the Catholic church has no relevance in UK politics, never mind Irish. The Catholic church still runs 90% of your primary schools ffs, and a good number of the rest are protestant. It's obviously getting better, but there's a long way to go.

And plenty of people have a religious funeral in fact in Limerick almost all but why? The same as with the schools habits.

When you have been living is such a structured society run by an institution to break it all done does not happen overnight.

When did the last Magdeline Laundry close? Not that long ago in the '70's. The scares and wounds created and bled by the catholic church should not be underestimated. They are huge and it will take considerable time for them to heal.

Politically the back rooms have been closed and openness is the order of the day. Progress and equality are happening.

Briton wrote:

Animavore wrote:
The Church have almost no relevance to today's society.

Do you think the preamble to you constitution will be removed in the foreseeable future? That would be a great step forward.

Do you think Britain will ever be as democratic as Ireland?

I'm With Stupid wrote:I got my statistics from this website, where it quotes one man claiming that religion frequently invades other subjects, to even if you opt out of religious bullshit for your children, you still have it frequently popping up in other classes. Obviously it would vary from school to school. I also went to a Catholic school where it really was a professionally run outfit that didn't ram religion down your throat. But it wouldn't surprise me if all Catholic schools aren't equal.

From that report:

The number of people describing themselves as “not religious” jumped by 44 percent between the 2006 census and the most recent count in 2011. A 2010 Irish Times poll found that 61 percent of respondents believed the Catholic Church should give up control of schools. Meanwhile, attendance at Mass in Ireland has plummeted.

Even the Catholic Schools Partnership, an association representing Catholic schools in Ireland, agreed there is a problem.

They maybe catholic schools but that is in name only. Only one priest qualified last year. Do you think the nuns still run the schools and that the bishop's representative still sits on the school board?

No.

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Briton wrote:

Animavore wrote:
The Church have almost no relevance to today's society.

Do you think the preamble to you constitution will be removed in the foreseeable future? That would be a great step forward.

Do you think Britain will ever be as democratic as Ireland?

Possibly. What the fuck has that got to do with my question?

My wife's uncle is a priest. At 86 he is still having to work but not just to look after one parish no he has to look after three at his age. Luckily one mass a fortnight is enough.

Animavore wrote:

Briton wrote:

Animavore wrote:
The Church have almost no relevance to today's society.

Do you think the preamble to you constitution will be removed in the foreseeable future? That would be a great step forward.

I think it will be ignored first, and then later removed.

Can't come too soon. As long as it's there your country is prejudiced, even if only ceremonially (if that's the right phrase).

Briton wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Briton wrote:

Animavore wrote:
The Church have almost no relevance to today's society.

Do you think the preamble to you constitution will be removed in the foreseeable future? That would be a great step forward.

Do you think Britain will ever be as democratic as Ireland?

Possibly. What the fuck has that got to do with my question?

It is about as clever. Constitutions are just that. They can be changed.

Democracy is something that is achieved. That has happened in Ireland not in the UK.

I'm With Stupid wrote:Where would be the evidence for this in the UK? If you look at voting patterns, you'll find that people in the North of England, Scotland and Wales typically vote for more socially progressive parties than large areas of London.

In the north of England there is a lot of anti-Tory sentiment. I know of communities where an individual not voting Labour would make them a social pariah. I'm not saying that every voter in the north votes along such entrenched lines, but that kind of tribalism is far from gone. Especially in areas around the mining communities.

I'm With Stupid wrote: I'd agree that London is more progressive than a lot of the areas immediately surrounding it, but the North of England generally? I can't see any reason to think that. I see evidence that cities are a bit more progressive than rural areas, but not that the capital city is in any way special (although it's probably true that the economic hub of any country has more foreign residents, and therefore enjoys more progressive attitudes towards foreigners).

I'd agree that the more urban areas tend to be more socially progressive than elsewhere, but I wouldn't say that the approach is consistent. I've got friends from South East London having some surprisingly shocking racist values, which I'd not experienced in a similar way in the north until I lived and worked around certain urban areas of deprivation, where attitudes were decidedly non-progressive on race.

I'd like to lay my hands on some concrete data in regards attitudes to the LGBT community that supported my perception that the north is less accepting than the south, but I'm struggling find anything.

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Briton wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Briton wrote:

Do you think the preamble to you constitution will be removed in the foreseeable future? That would be a great step forward.

Do you think Britain will ever be as democratic as Ireland?

Possibly. What the fuck has that got to do with my question?

It is about as clever. Constitutions are just that. They can be changed.

As in not clever at all, but then, I wasn't trying to be 'clever'. I don't think you should either as you make yourself look a tit.
I think the preamble to the Irish Constitution is obnoxious but at least they have a constitution.

Scot Dutchy wrote:Democracy is something that is achieved. That has happened in Ireland not in the UK.

Ireland is more democratic than the UK but the UK is a democracy. Your latest poke at the UK is inaccurate as well as irrelevant .

Anyway, let's put this debate into perspective. Absolutely everything we're talking about is irrelevant in the study. Here are some other countries on the Prosperity and Equality list:

10th place: Malaysia - illegal to be gay, women second class citizens in many areas of life.
11th place: Zambia - widespread discrimination of homosexuals, harassment from police (despite arguably not being illegal), massive gender divide in secondary education.
12th place: Botswana - illegal to be gay
15th place: Armenia - widespread discrimination against gay people, and no legal protection.
18th place: Kenya - illegal to be gay, widespread violence against gay people, limited educational opportunities and property rights for women, FGM widespread.
32nd place: Sudan - 88% of women subjected to FGM, illegal to be gay, just 31% of women work.
43rd place: Saudi Arabia - why even bother?

All of these countries are apparently more equal than Iceland (101st), Italy (65th), Portugal (61st), the USA (53rd) or Spain (49th).

So to be honest, I think exactly how much influence the Catholic church still has is pretty irrelevant, when countries that practice female genital mutilation and prison for homosexuality are getting in the top 20.

Briton wrote:Ireland is more democratic than the UK but the UK is a democracy. Your latest poke at the UK is irrelevant as well as inaccurate.

When has democracy alighted on British soil? FPTP is not democracy by any definition.

Ireland's system is far more democratic. They the STV. Which does give more equal weight to each vote.

The equality and prosperity index is about how much your country does to improve equality and prosperity around the world, not about what it does domestically. Ireland evidently does more to encourage equal and mutually beneficial trade than any other country, so good luck to them.

Scot Dutchy wrote:
When has democracy alighted on British soil? FPTP is not democracy by any definition.

So nobody defines the UK as a democracy? What utter crap.

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Ireland's system is far more democratic. They the STV. Which does give more equal weight to each vote.

So fucking what? I've already said (twice) Ireland is more democratic than the UK; not that has anything to do with my initial post anyway. You are vehemently anti-British, I get it; just leave me out of your obsessive silliness.

Good luck with that.

Briton wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:
When has democracy alighted on British soil? FPTP is not democracy by any definition.

So nobody defines the UK as a democracy? What utter crap.

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Ireland's system is far more democratic. They the STV. Which does give more equal weight to each vote.

So fucking what? I've already said (twice) Ireland is more democratic than the UK; not that has anything to do with my initial post anyway. You are vehemently anti-British, I get it; just leave me out of your obsessive silliness.

I am not vehemently anti-British. I just cant the illusions that many Brits have over their country.

So you are quite willing to accept you do not live in a democracy. Nice one.