Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

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Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#1  Postby electricwhiteboy » Jun 19, 2017 2:48 pm

Feel free to move if this isn’t the right forum.

I'm looking for a decent source for refuting the Book of Exodus. I know in broad strokes that there is no archaeological evidence for ancient widespread slavery of the Jews in Egypt, and various other titbits. What I'd ideally want is some kind of sceptical critique of when and why Exodus was written. I.e. It in no way happened like that, and here's why they made up the pseudo-history that appears in the OT.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#2  Postby Weaver » Jun 19, 2017 3:05 pm

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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#3  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 19, 2017 3:10 pm

The thread title shifts the burden of proof.
But besides that:
There's no evidence for a large population of Jews in Egypt at that time.
There is no evidence for mass slavery in Egypt at that time, neither Jewish nor in general.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#5  Postby Weaver » Jun 19, 2017 3:22 pm

While the burden of proof properly lies with those making the claim that Exodus happened, it is still possible to offer evidence which refutes the possibility that it happened as described. The Rational Wiki article to which I linked is a good example - it examines the claims and provides contrary evidence, and gives an accounting of the current scientific thinking about the time period, which includes evidence which by itself directly refutes the mythical claims.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#6  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 19, 2017 8:03 pm

Weaver wrote:While the burden of proof properly lies with those making the claim that Exodus happened, it is still possible to offer evidence which refutes the possibility that it happened as described. The Rational Wiki article to which I linked is a good example - it examines the claims and provides contrary evidence, and gives an accounting of the current scientific thinking about the time period, which includes evidence which by itself directly refutes the mythical claims.

:nod:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#7  Postby newolder » Jun 19, 2017 9:00 pm

Evidence against a work of fiction? Might as well begin the search for Mordor or Gormenghast. :roll:
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#8  Postby aban57 » Oct 09, 2017 1:21 pm

electricwhiteboy wrote:Feel free to move if this isn’t the right forum.

I'm looking for a decent source for refuting the Book of Exodus. I know in broad strokes that there is no archaeological evidence for ancient widespread slavery of the Jews in Egypt, and various other titbits. What I'd ideally want is some kind of sceptical critique of when and why Exodus was written. I.e. It in no way happened like that, and here's why they made up the pseudo-history that appears in the OT.


You could also readthis book :)
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#9  Postby Animavore » Oct 09, 2017 1:32 pm

The Bible Unearthed is another great one.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#10  Postby zulumoose » Oct 09, 2017 1:58 pm

When you are asked to provide evidence against something, it usually means the person asking is under the impression the subject in question is an established fact. The first step should always be to question what the foundations are of this impression.

Many people think the bible is well supported history, and have never even heard that there is a debate about such things as the historicity of Jesus or the Charlton Heston version of the Exodus story. Once you redirect them to backing up their own assertions, their eyes are opened to some extent.

"Of course it's true, prove it isn't" is the starting point for many entertaining arguments.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#11  Postby Agrippina » Oct 11, 2017 11:12 am

electricwhiteboy wrote:Feel free to move if this isn’t the right forum.

I'm looking for a decent source for refuting the Book of Exodus. I know in broad strokes that there is no archaeological evidence for ancient widespread slavery of the Jews in Egypt, and various other titbits. What I'd ideally want is some kind of sceptical critique of when and why Exodus was written. I.e. It in no way happened like that, and here's why they made up the pseudo-history that appears in the OT.


My opinion is that Exodus was written from the point of view of having experienced the exile in Babylon, the writers sought to create an "ancient" mythology around their history, and with knowledge of Egyptian culture, they made up the story of everything from Abraham to Moses. Possibly the story of their origin was already in the mythology they shared around their campfires, but then having been exiled from their homes, and being second-class citizens in the developed civilisation that was "Persia" they created an earlier exile from a melding of the stories of their mythology and their recent exile.

When you look at the actual history of Egypt during the second millennium BCE, it is nothing at all as described in the Pentateuch.

Look at the individual stories: Joseph has a coat of many colours. In the late 2nd millennium, this would've involved acquiring dyes that were expensive and complicated to obtain. The clothes they wore were homespun, and mostly woollen because they had sheep. Then the time lapses. His brothers are present when their sister is "raped" (Genesis 34:1 – 34:31) and the men of the town first circumcised, then murdered, then they move away, but return to Shechem for Joseph's abduction. At this time, Benjamin wasn't born yet (consult the timelines), yet Joseph knows about all the brothers when they visit him in Egypt.

Joseph is in Egypt for decades, a youngster when he is abducted, and imprisoned, yet he remembers how they worship "God" and refers to his brothers' God rather than the religion of Egypt which he would've been exposed to in his exile. The same goes for Moses. He's raised as an Egyptian prince, yet he recognises the god of the Jews without any teaching. In the modern world we know how difficult it is to become a Jew, so how did Moses do it in a matter of weeks? But not only that, there's the question of the plagues and how many times all the animals in Egypt died, and then were reanimated only to die again.

Here's some of the stuff I wrote on the subject years ago when I was researching my book.

Joseph.

Actually, if you look through that blogspot site, you'll find most of what I wrote about the Bible, particularly answers about the Old Testament.

https://www.academia.edu/22264029/_Trade_and_power_in_ancient_Egypt_Middle_Egypt_in_the_late_third_early_second_millennium_BC_Journal_of_Archaeological_Research_25_2_2017_87-132
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#12  Postby aban57 » Oct 11, 2017 11:32 am

Agrippina wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote:Feel free to move if this isn’t the right forum.

I'm looking for a decent source for refuting the Book of Exodus. I know in broad strokes that there is no archaeological evidence for ancient widespread slavery of the Jews in Egypt, and various other titbits. What I'd ideally want is some kind of sceptical critique of when and why Exodus was written. I.e. It in no way happened like that, and here's why they made up the pseudo-history that appears in the OT.


My opinion is that Exodus was written from the point of view of having experienced the exile in Babylon, the writers sought to create an "ancient" mythology around their history, and with knowledge of Egyptian culture, they made up the story of everything from Abraham to Moses. Possibly the story of their origin was already in the mythology they shared around their campfires, but then having been exiled from their homes, and being second-class citizens in the developed civilisation that was "Persia" they created an earlier exile from a melding of the stories of their mythology and their recent exile.

When you look at the actual history of Egypt during the second millennium BCE, it is nothing at all as described in the Pentateuch.

Look at the individual stories: Joseph has a coat of many colours. In the late 2nd millennium, this would've involved acquiring dyes that were expensive and complicated to obtain. The clothes they wore were homespun, and mostly woollen because they had sheep. Then the time lapses. His brothers are present when their sister is "raped" (Genesis 34:1 – 34:31) and the men of the town first circumcised, then murdered, then they move away, but return to Shechem for Joseph's abduction. At this time, Benjamin wasn't born yet (consult the timelines), yet Joseph knows about all the brothers when they visit him in Egypt.

Joseph is in Egypt for decades, a youngster when he is abducted, and imprisoned, yet he remembers how they worship "God" and refers to his brothers' God rather than the religion of Egypt which he would've been exposed to in his exile. The same goes for Moses. He's raised as an Egyptian prince, yet he recognises the god of the Jews without any teaching. In the modern world we know how difficult it is to become a Jew, so how did Moses do it in a matter of weeks? But not only that, there's the question of the plagues and how many times all the animals in Egypt died, and then were reanimated only to die again.

Here's some of the stuff I wrote on the subject years ago when I was researching my book.

Joseph.

Actually, if you look through that blogspot site, you'll find most of what I wrote about the Bible, particularly answers about the Old Testament.

https://www.academia.edu/22264029/_Trade_and_power_in_ancient_Egypt_Middle_Egypt_in_the_late_third_early_second_millennium_BC_Journal_of_Archaeological_Research_25_2_2017_87-132


And please don't forget how Abraham got rich, it's an interesting story too. Especially for those who claim the get their morals from the Bible.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#13  Postby Agrippina » Oct 11, 2017 3:10 pm

Indeed. Sold her to rich people then made them pay him to take her back. Or something like that. (Genesis 12:10-20 and 20:1-18)
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#14  Postby aban57 » Oct 11, 2017 4:21 pm

Agrippina wrote:Indeed. Sold her to rich people then made them pay him to take her back. Or something like that. (Genesis 12:10-20 and 20:1-18)


Told tribe chiefs (twice) she was his sister, instead of his wife, so that when the start making her advances, he can ask for retribution.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#15  Postby Agrippina » Oct 12, 2017 6:32 am

Yep. But she was also his sister, same father, different mother. And we think the Lannisters are sick!. What about Lot and his daughters? Genesis 19.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#16  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 12, 2017 11:40 am

Are we getting down to the iffy bits. :lol:
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#17  Postby aban57 » Oct 12, 2017 11:52 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Are we getting down to the iffy bits. :lol:


Well if you call having 2 daughters raping their father, one after the other, by making him drunk, yeah, we are :)
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#18  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 12, 2017 12:30 pm

It is a good story...
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#19  Postby Agrippina » Oct 12, 2017 2:36 pm

Well their coupling did give rise to two nations.
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Re: Historical Evidence Against the Book of Exodus

#20  Postby aban57 » Oct 12, 2017 2:39 pm

That's one hell of a way to start a nation. Rape and incest at the same time.
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