Humans are not Zombies

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Humans are not Zombies

#1  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2019 1:57 am

I've just challenged Thommo to a debate about zombies http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2715460

... but this isn't really about me nor Thommo so I've started a thread here.

My bottom-line, if you've read the link, is that zombies wouldn't have created chocolate factories. Why? Because they're neither creative nor have sensations such as those associated with specific substances such as chocolate, which we generally love.

Zombies would only care, at most, about survival. They would never ever, even in an eternity, develop industries catering to taste.

Debate.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#2  Postby Thommo » Oct 02, 2019 2:02 am

There's nothing there to debate. A P-zombie is defined to be behaviourally (and in all other physical respects) identical to a human. Anything that doesn't create, wouldn't exploit a business opportunity for a well observed preference among its peers (zombie or no) or cared only about survival would be trivially distinguishable from a human.

Refusing to engage with a premise is not a form of argument from that premise.

ETA: Note, I am neither saying that P-zombies are a philosophically useful concept nor that they are possible.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#3  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2019 2:17 am

Thommo wrote:There's nothing there to debate. A P-zombie is behaviourally (and in all other physical respects) identical to a human. Anything that doesn't create, wouldn't exploit a business opportunity for a well observed preference among its peers (zombie or no) or cared only about survival would be trivially distinguishable from a human.

Refusing to engage with a premise is not a form of argument.

ETA: Note, I am neither saying that P-zombies are a philosophically useful concept nor that they are possible.

Don't be a dingbat. As you must know, the ONLY point of the zombie debate in philosophy is to undermine the notion of spirit/mind, rather to undermine the notion that 'we' are more than physical/chemical/robotic beings. It's basically a physicalist counter to idealism!!

Nevertheless, there is more to discuss here than our behavioural similarities. Hence, chocolate factories. For I put it to you that we cannot be equated to zombies in any form due to the FACT that we have created chocolate factories. Zombies would never have done this, even in an eternity!!!

And that's the point of the debate, because it puts the zombie argument to bed for an eternity!!!
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#4  Postby Thommo » Oct 02, 2019 2:22 am

jamest wrote:Don't be a dingbat. As you must know, the ONLY point of the zombie debate in philosophy is to undermine the notion of spirit/mind, rather to undermine the notion that 'we' are more than physical/chemical/robotic beings. It's basically a physicalist counter to idealism!!


No it isn't. Zombies aren't a physicalist invention.

As the already provided link quite clearly explains they are a being proposed to demonstrate the falsity of physicalism - inherently dualist in perspective.

It's incredibly frustrating to talk to someone who insists on personalising every discussion and whose assessment of their own knowledge and faculties so wildly differs from the adjacent sentences in which they show their profound ignorance of the basic details of the topic they've not only chosen to hold forth about, but call someone out over.

So, you know what, I won't bother. Talking to you is a waste of time.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Since you clearly have the time, I suggest you attend to your promise of an apology to Aban.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#5  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2019 2:43 am

Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:Don't be a dingbat. As you must know, the ONLY point of the zombie debate in philosophy is to undermine the notion of spirit/mind, rather to undermine the notion that 'we' are more than physical/chemical/robotic beings. It's basically a physicalist counter to idealism!!


No it isn't. Zombies aren't a physicalist invention.

As the already provided link quite clearly explains they are a being proposed to demonstrate the falsity of physicalism - inherently dualist in perspective.

It's incredibly frustrating to talk to someone who insists on personalising every discussion and whose assessment of their own knowledge and faculties so wildly differs from the adjacent sentences in which they show their profound ignorance of the basic details of the topic they've not only chosen to hold forth about, but call someone out over.

So, you know what, I won't bother. Talking to you is a waste of time.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Since you clearly have the time, I suggest you attend to your promise of an apology to Aban.

It doesn't matter who invented p-zombies or why. And yes, I'm willing to apologise if it was an idealist who invented the notion, if that's what matters to you, but the bottom-line presented to you here is that there is no scenario in which a human could be equated to a zombie or robot. For me, that's the real worth of this thread.

And, fwiw, I haven't done or said anything to aban to apologise for. I was pissed off initially because of the tree-hanging of KIR.
I don't like tree hangings. That's all.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#6  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 2:43 am

Humans are not strawberry jam.

Do I get a degree in Philosophy now?


My bottom-line, if you've read the link, is that zombies wouldn't have created chocolate factories. Why? Because they're neither creative nor have sensations such as those associated with specific substances such as chocolate, which we generally love.


Your bottom line doesn't appear to care about the most intrinsic point of notional philosophical zombies. They're not 'zombies'.

Zombies are an element of fiction, typically when a plague, disease or some other maleficient cause kills humans but leaves their corpses animated. These corpses then either try to attack or eat other humans causing them also to become zombies. They do not care about 'survival' in the slightest; they're already dead. Their drives are often portrayed as animalistic, bestial, or motivated by a directed evil, but not towards any conscious end, and they are absolutely never mistaken for humans.

This couldn't be different from the notional construct of a philosophical zombie which expressly is about being indistinguishable from a human being despite lacking internal states.

So your argument is insolubly flawed. A p-zombie could, of course, appear to enjoy chocolate and their apparent enjoyment of chocolate would be indistinguishable to you or anyone else from the apparent enjoyment a normal human being garners from eating chocolate. A human being can open a chocolate factory, so an entity entirely indistinguishable from a human would also be able to open a chocolate factory. A p-zombie could appear to be in love and write amorous poetry. A p-zombie could appear to fear dogs, and convincingly cower from them. A p-zombie WOULD necessarily convincingly exhibit every single potential characteristic of any other human being, but internally the gears driving the actions would be different but eternally undetectable.

If you argue that it would be distinguishable, then you're not actually talking about p-zombies at all.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#7  Postby felltoearth » Oct 02, 2019 2:46 am

I know someone who doesn’t like chocolate. Should I take an axe to their head?
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#8  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 2:47 am

jamest wrote:
And, fwiw, I haven't done or said anything to aban to apologise for. I was pissed off initially because of the tree-hanging of KIR.
I don't like tree hangings. That's all.


So dramatic as always... when all that fucking happened was that a vicious asshole got a temporary suspension. And of course, it's not like there's any motivation for you, of all people, to be worried about the ramifications of being a rude, obnoxious cunt to the membership of this forum and instead to pretend that due process resulting from such behavior equates to mob lynching. :nono:

Why do so many of your posts invoke a 'for fuck's sakes, James'? I swear, you've not grown at all from engaging in this forum. You've actually regressed.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#9  Postby Thommo » Oct 02, 2019 2:48 am

jamest wrote:And, fwiw, I haven't done or said anything to aban to apologise for.


You said you did:
jamest wrote:I'll apologise to you all if someone can prove to me that KIR "has a history of expressing distaste for transexuals" (Hermit).


Which is exactly the kind of flaming hypocrisy and broken promise that we have all come to expect of you.

Your promises mean nothing. Your own standards mean nothing.

Why should anyone listen to a word you say when you have no respect for it yourself? This thread is just another iteration of the same thing. You called me out (for no reason whatsoever) to discuss a topic that you clearly don't even understand to the depth of the first sentence of an introduction to the topic.

What's the point of that? Seriously. What is the point?
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#10  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2019 2:51 am

Spearthrower wrote:Humans are not strawberry jam.

Do I get a degree in Philosophy now?


My bottom-line, if you've read the link, is that zombies wouldn't have created chocolate factories. Why? Because they're neither creative nor have sensations such as those associated with specific substances such as chocolate, which we generally love.


Your bottom line doesn't appear to care about the most intrinsic point of notional philosophical zombies. They're not 'zombies'.

Zombies are an element of fiction, typically when a plague, disease or some other maleficient cause kills humans but leaves their corpses animated. These corpses then either try to attack or eat other humans causing them also to become zombies. They do not care about 'survival' in the slightest; they're already dead. Their drives are often portrayed as animalistic, bestial, or motivated by a directed evil, but not towards any conscious end, and they are absolutely never mistaken for humans.

This couldn't be different from the notional construct of a philosophical zombie which expressly is about being indistinguishable from a human being despite lacking internal states.

So your argument is insolubly flawed. A p-zombie could, of course, appear to enjoy chocolate and their apparent enjoyment of chocolate would be indistinguishable to you or anyone else from the apparent enjoyment a normal human being garners from eating chocolate. A human being can open a chocolate factory, so an entity entirely indistinguishable from a human would also be able to open a chocolate factory. A p-zombie could appear to be in love and write amorous poetry. A p-zombie could appear to fear dogs, and convincingly cower from them. A p-zombie WOULD necessarily convincingly exhibit every single potential characteristic of any other human being, but internally the gears driving the actions would be different but eternally undetectable.

If you argue that it would be distinguishable, then you're not actually talking about p-zombies at all.

The point of being indistinguishable from a human-being is the entire point of the argument, since what qualities would it take for a being to want to create a chocolate factory?
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 2:53 am

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:There's nothing there to debate. A P-zombie is behaviourally (and in all other physical respects) identical to a human. Anything that doesn't create, wouldn't exploit a business opportunity for a well observed preference among its peers (zombie or no) or cared only about survival would be trivially distinguishable from a human.

Refusing to engage with a premise is not a form of argument.

ETA: Note, I am neither saying that P-zombies are a philosophically useful concept nor that they are possible.


Don't be a dingbat.


The mind of a master philosopher at work; immediate go to response is ad hominem.


jamest wrote: As you must know, the ONLY point of the zombie debate in philosophy is to undermine the notion of spirit/mind, rather to undermine the notion that 'we' are more than physical/chemical/robotic beings. It's basically a physicalist counter to idealism!!


:doh:

ignoratio elenchi; didn't your OU course in philosophy even touch on logic?


jamest wrote:Nevertheless, there is more to discuss here than our behavioural similarities.


There may be <more> to discuss than that, but you can't abandon this component and still be talking about this topic. It's basal to the concept. If you don't want to acknowledge that p-zombies are entirely indistinguishable from humans, and that is the entire point of the concept, then you're no longer talking about it, so why this thread expressly to talk about it? :scratch:


jamest wrote: Hence, chocolate factories.


Can humans open chocolate factories? If not, then you might have a point, otherwise, you've failed to grasp the most elementary point.


jamest wrote:For I put it to you that we cannot be equated to zombies in any form due to the FACT that we have created chocolate factories. Zombies would never have done this, even in an eternity!!!


Ergo, you're not talking about the topic because it is wholly predicated upon the indistinguishability of the notional zombie constructs from other non-zombie humans. If you can't grasp this, then there can be no sensible discussion on the topic.


jamest wrote:And that's the point of the debate, because it puts the zombie argument to bed for an eternity!!!


Just bewilderingly dense.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#12  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2019 2:53 am

Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:
And, fwiw, I haven't done or said anything to aban to apologise for. I was pissed off initially because of the tree-hanging of KIR.
I don't like tree hangings. That's all.


So dramatic as always... when all that fucking happened was that a vicious asshole got a temporary suspension. And of course, it's not like there's any motivation for you, of all people, to be worried about the ramifications of being a rude, obnoxious cunt to the membership of this forum and instead to pretend that due process resulting from such behavior equates to mob lynching. :nono:

Why do so many of your posts invoke a 'for fuck's sakes, James'? I swear, you've not grown at all from engaging in this forum. You've actually regressed.

Fwiw, I will be pissed-off if the spear geezer gets a formal warning for calling me a cunt here. Please let him off mods!!!
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#13  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 2:55 am

jamest wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:Humans are not strawberry jam.

Do I get a degree in Philosophy now?


My bottom-line, if you've read the link, is that zombies wouldn't have created chocolate factories. Why? Because they're neither creative nor have sensations such as those associated with specific substances such as chocolate, which we generally love.


Your bottom line doesn't appear to care about the most intrinsic point of notional philosophical zombies. They're not 'zombies'.

Zombies are an element of fiction, typically when a plague, disease or some other maleficient cause kills humans but leaves their corpses animated. These corpses then either try to attack or eat other humans causing them also to become zombies. They do not care about 'survival' in the slightest; they're already dead. Their drives are often portrayed as animalistic, bestial, or motivated by a directed evil, but not towards any conscious end, and they are absolutely never mistaken for humans.

This couldn't be different from the notional construct of a philosophical zombie which expressly is about being indistinguishable from a human being despite lacking internal states.

So your argument is insolubly flawed. A p-zombie could, of course, appear to enjoy chocolate and their apparent enjoyment of chocolate would be indistinguishable to you or anyone else from the apparent enjoyment a normal human being garners from eating chocolate. A human being can open a chocolate factory, so an entity entirely indistinguishable from a human would also be able to open a chocolate factory. A p-zombie could appear to be in love and write amorous poetry. A p-zombie could appear to fear dogs, and convincingly cower from them. A p-zombie WOULD necessarily convincingly exhibit every single potential characteristic of any other human being, but internally the gears driving the actions would be different but eternally undetectable.

If you argue that it would be distinguishable, then you're not actually talking about p-zombies at all.


The point of being indistinguishable from a human-being is the entire point of the argument, since what qualities would it take for a being to want to create a chocolate factory?


It's not about 'want' - 'want' isn't something you can know. As a human being, I might open a chocolate factory, and you looking at me might conceive that I did so because I wanted to, but that's just an assumption you're making positing a mental state you recognize from your own motivations and the labels you've learned for them.

That's exactly what would happen with a p-zombie. They could open a chocolate factory, but 'want' is not relevant to their motivations except that you would still posit that motivation given that they are entirely indistinguishable from humans.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#14  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 2:57 am

jamest wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:
And, fwiw, I haven't done or said anything to aban to apologise for. I was pissed off initially because of the tree-hanging of KIR.
I don't like tree hangings. That's all.


So dramatic as always... when all that fucking happened was that a vicious asshole got a temporary suspension. And of course, it's not like there's any motivation for you, of all people, to be worried about the ramifications of being a rude, obnoxious cunt to the membership of this forum and instead to pretend that due process resulting from such behavior equates to mob lynching. :nono:

Why do so many of your posts invoke a 'for fuck's sakes, James'? I swear, you've not grown at all from engaging in this forum. You've actually regressed.

Fwiw, I will be pissed-off if the spear geezer gets a formal warning for calling me a cunt here. Please let him off mods!!!



I didn't call you a cunt. If I wanted to call you a cunt, I would have done so.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#15  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2019 2:59 am

HOLD ON!!!!

Fuck this bollocks, please! Can we, for ONCE, just discuss the merits of the OP, which, essentially, states that 'humans' transcend both zombies and robots. I mean, surely that profundity is bigger than me being the biggest cunt here? :nono:
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#16  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 3:03 am

jamest wrote:HOLD ON!!!!

Fuck this bollocks, please! Can we, for ONCE, just discuss the merits of the OP, which, essentially, states that 'humans' transcend both zombies and robots. I mean, surely that profundity is bigger than me being the biggest cunt here? :nono:



Hold on. Fuck this bollocks, you're the guy who started with the name-calling, so shove your hypocrisy back up your jaxie, sunshine. That's quite aside from the hard fact that no one called you a cunt, but you leapt to pretend otherwise implying you had been called a cunt, ergo, seems to be another iteration of you calling yourself a cunt on other peoples' behalf then complaining about it.

You also declared that you had no reason to apologize to Aban when you said you would in the other thread, you also dished out your drama about lynchings... so don't fuck about.

If you want a serious discussion, get fucking serious.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#17  Postby jamest » Oct 02, 2019 3:05 am

Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:
The point of being indistinguishable from a human-being is the entire point of the argument, since what qualities would it take for a being to want to create a chocolate factory?


It's not about 'want' - 'want' isn't something you can know. As a human being, I might open a chocolate factory, and you looking at me might conceive that I did so because I wanted to, but that's just an assumption you're making positing a mental state you recognize from your own motivations and the labels you've learned for them.

That's exactly what would happen with a p-zombie. They could open a chocolate factory, but 'want' is not relevant to their motivations except that you would still posit that motivation given that they are entirely indistinguishable from humans.

What a load of bollocks. The entire history of 'chocolate factories' has been driven by desire and subsequent demand.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#18  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 3:06 am

Can we, for ONCE, just discuss the merits of the OP,


We have: the OP is without merit as it doesn't understand the predicate.


which, essentially, states that 'humans' transcend both zombies and robots.


Not a relevant discussion, and about as interesting a topic as humans transcend strawberry jam.
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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#19  Postby OlivierK » Oct 02, 2019 3:07 am

James, people have been discussing the merits of the OP. Specifically, they've held your hand through explanations of why it has no merit. You should be thanking them for their patience with your inadequate knowledge of the philosophy you want to discuss.

If you want a gold star for observing that humans have desires, whilst hypothetical p-zombies would not (by definition of the concept of p-zombie), then fine, have a star. It's not profound, it's definitionally trivial.

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Re: Humans are not Zombies

#20  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 02, 2019 3:08 am

jamest wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:
The point of being indistinguishable from a human-being is the entire point of the argument, since what qualities would it take for a being to want to create a chocolate factory?


It's not about 'want' - 'want' isn't something you can know. As a human being, I might open a chocolate factory, and you looking at me might conceive that I did so because I wanted to, but that's just an assumption you're making positing a mental state you recognize from your own motivations and the labels you've learned for them.

That's exactly what would happen with a p-zombie. They could open a chocolate factory, but 'want' is not relevant to their motivations except that you would still posit that motivation given that they are entirely indistinguishable from humans.


What a load of bollocks. The entire history of 'chocolate factories' has been driven by desire and subsequent demand.


Clueless. Abjectly clueless. It's astounding you actually wanted this discussion when you're so obviously ill-prepared to even process the most basic components of it.

P-zombies could also create market demand for chocolate because... *drum roll*... they're entirely indistinguishable from humans. The 'want' notion is a red herring with which you are misleading only yourself.
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