IAAF regulations for female athletes

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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#201  Postby Fallible » Jun 09, 2019 9:52 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:None of Phelps' advantageous traits are due to him being a different sex from his former competition. They're examples of natural variation of ability. Semenya's advantageous traits are due to being male.


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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#202  Postby nunnington » Jun 09, 2019 3:13 pm

But the IAAF describes her as female, I think.
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#203  Postby Thommo » Jun 09, 2019 4:50 pm

I think they call her a woman because she identifies as a woman, not as a reflection of her biological sex.

The Doriane Lambelet Coleman article based on her testimony before CAS consistently genders her female, but clearly describes her as a biological male (and I think also intersex in one place). She was one of the people testifying for the IAAF, so her view is likely to be fairly representative of their view as a whole.
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#204  Postby GrahamH » Jun 09, 2019 4:54 pm

nunnington wrote:But the IAAF describes her as female, I think.



The IAAF dropped their exclusion ruling based on 46XY back in 2010 so clearly it's not as simple as "Semenya's … being male." or they would have stuck with that which is easy to to test and unambiguous. I think it's difficult to assess what performance benefit an indivisual might get. Most of the science relates to "normal males" and Semenya isn't that.

People with a DSD do not develop along typical gender lines.
Their hormones, genes, reproductive organs may be a mix of male and female characteristics.

Research commissioned by the IAAF showed in 2017 that female athletes with elevated testosterone had "a competitive advantage", claiming that high testosterone was responsible for as much as 3% improvement in runners.

However those findings were contested by Semenya and her team.

They claim it is not clear how much DSD athletes benefit from their naturally higher levels of testosterone.
During the early 1990s, Spanish hurdler Maria Jose Martinez-Patino successfully fought against a ban imposed after she was discovered to have XY chromosomes typically seen in men.
She demonstrated that her condition made her insensitive to the 'excess' testosterone in her blood.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48114137

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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#205  Postby GrahamH » Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm

It had been suggested that, had the verdict gone against the IAAF, athletics might have introduced an 'open' category that men and women could, in theory, compete in side by side, and a 'protected' category based on hormone levels, rather than gender.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48114137


That seems a bit of mish mash.
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#206  Postby nunnington » Jun 09, 2019 11:13 pm

There were various reports early in the year that IAAF would describe Semenya as a biological male, but they immediately denied that. I suppose they describe her as a DSD female, but that is not male. Haven't got the links right now.
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#207  Postby GrahamH » Jun 15, 2019 5:38 pm

This seems quite well considered regarding trans athletes:



His conclusion being that anyone that experiences male puberty has a significant avantage in sports dominated by explosive power and size such as sprinting.

For an intersex 46XY like Semenya the question arising from that position would then be to what extent did she experience "male puberty" given her androgen insensitivity and mixture of physical characteristics?
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#208  Postby Thommo » Jun 18, 2019 5:44 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48678230
Caster Semenya says IAAF used her as a human guinea pig and fears others at risk

Semenya spoke out as the Court of Arbitration for Sport released a 163-page document explaining in detail why it had rejected her appeal against the IAAF's rules.


CAS full ruling from last month here:
https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_ ... A_IAAF.pdf

I found the section from 454 onwards quite informative.
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#209  Postby GrahamH » Jun 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Thommo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48678230
Caster Semenya says IAAF used her as a human guinea pig and fears others at risk

Semenya spoke out as the Court of Arbitration for Sport released a 163-page document explaining in detail why it had rejected her appeal against the IAAF's rules.


CAS full ruling from last month here:
https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_ ... A_IAAF.pdf

I found the section from 454 onwards quite informative.


Thanks for posting that. reading 454 on seems to me to emphasise the inappropriateness of categories for male and female when the objective is to promote competition dictated by athletic ability, not sex per se.


"It is not in dispute that it is necessary to have … male and female categories"


There may be various reasons people want to stick to that, but it's not strictly "necessary". Other categories could be defined that meet all the listed needs of sporting competition for athetes.
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#210  Postby Thommo » Jun 26, 2019 8:19 pm

The Trans Women Athlete Dispute with Martina Navratilova is on BBC one right now.
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Re: IAAF regulations for female athletes

#211  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jun 26, 2019 11:58 pm

It's a good piece.

Thommo wrote:I think they call her a woman because she identifies as a woman, not as a reflection of her biological sex.


It's that in addition to the fact, to a large extent, she developed a female phenotype. It's not like she functions as a man in society as she largely isn't perceived as one. Her identifying as a man when she has been told her whole life she's a women and her body has largely reinforced that would be odd.

I'm sure she doesn't have all the athletic advantages of males because she doesn't have a typical male body. I doubt her lung capacity is significantly greater than that of typical female athletes.

The Doriane Lambelet Coleman article based on her testimony before CAS consistently genders her female, but clearly describes her as a biological male (and I think also intersex in one place). She was one of the people testifying for the IAAF, so her view is likely to be fairly representative of their view as a whole.


That's what I've read.
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