"Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#861  Postby Fallible » Nov 17, 2014 11:26 am

TMB wrote:
Fallible wrote:However there are lots of jobs in which ''ugliness' or traumatic sights are involved, such as police officer, nurse, doctor or paramedic, all of which women manage to 'deal with' to the same extent that men do.


Women are certainly more engaged in these activities, however the ugliness in military, police, firefighting and other dangerous activities is different to medicine due to the direct risks involved. In military terms the casualty rate is 2.5% women from these current US military figures,
mhttp://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22452.pdf

The police figures are 10% women, however this is still just 1 female in 10.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press- ... -assaulted

The figures in other high risk activities are similar and ths is quantified by the lower life expectancy than women because they engage in more high risk behavior than women do.

Only exceptional women del with this the way many men do. These roles are not the rule for women at this stage.


They are not 'the rule' for men either, since the majority of men are not employed in high risk roles. More realistically, only exceptional men and women deal with this.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#862  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Nov 17, 2014 11:29 am

Women give birth. That's risky and ugly. Most of them aren't traumatised permanently by the experience.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#863  Postby Sendraks » Nov 17, 2014 11:35 am

TMB wrote:.I disagree. There is plenty of literature supporting mens higher propensity for risky behavior than women. To argue differently ignores the effects of biology on our behavior. Do you want some evidence for this or can you find it yourself?


Certainly in the fields of "extreme sports" there does indeed appear to be a higher percentage of men taking part. Whether this is because men are more "drawn" to these kinds of activities than women or whether it is because there are barriers to women taking part (which doesn't necessarily mean only active discrimination by men, but other factors at play) is probably impossible to determine with any accuracy or validity.

However, let us entertain for the moment then men do such things because it is in their nature to do so. Why is that an equality issue?
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#864  Postby Nicko » Nov 17, 2014 11:51 am

Fallible wrote:However there are lots of jobs in which ''ugliness' or traumatic sights are involved, such as police officer, nurse, doctor or paramedic, all of which women manage to 'deal with' to the same extent that men do.


My point exactly.

If anything, the perception that men deal with traumatic events "better" than women is based more on societal indifference to the pain of "broken" men - based on norms of male stoicism - rather than any actual observation of male "toughness".
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#865  Postby Sendraks » Nov 17, 2014 12:02 pm

Nicko wrote:If anything, the perception that men deal with traumatic events "better" than women is based more on societal indifference to the pain of "broken" men - based on norms of male stoicism - rather than any actual observation of male "toughness".


And the concept of men having to "toughen up" or "man up" or otherwise behave in suitably masculine way, at all times, is in itself a source of some of the problems men face. We've had threads about this in the past, we a fairly vocal group of posters insisting that men should "man up" and that was the right way for things to be done. Suggestions that men perhaps should be taught to be more open with their feelings and communicate more freely, was treated with derision by other male posters.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#866  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Nov 17, 2014 12:08 pm

When you suggest it would be beneficial to everyone if men opened up about their feelings and sought help when they're struggling you get accused of shaming men for being men.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#867  Postby Sendraks » Nov 17, 2014 12:11 pm

Yeah, that's pretty much what happened in the threads I'm thinking of.

Basically a failure on the part of men to recognise that their behaviour is part of the problem (see male suicide rates as an example) and instead rather than take constructive criticism, in terms into a "oh noes, we're being teh blamed!"
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#868  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Nov 17, 2014 12:20 pm

Obviously, we can all make matters better by encouraging certain behaviours and moving away from gender essentialist ideas of what a manly man person is supposed to be so everyone needs to modify their behaviour in that respect.

If the men whose lives could be vastly improved are going to dig in their heels when people suggest opening up about feelings and seeking counsel when concerned about something and say this is man shaming though there's really nothing anyone can do to help.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#869  Postby OlivierK » Nov 17, 2014 12:23 pm

TMB wrote:There is plenty of literature supporting mens higher propensity for risky behavior than women. To argue differently ignores the effects of biology on our behavior. Do you want some evidence for this or can you find it yourself?

If you're convinced that men's greater propensity to indulge in risky behaviour is rooted in biology and is responsible for these sorts of outcomes (and I'd agree with that to a certain degree), then surely those outcomes are not things that you can lay at the feet of feminists and ask why they haven't fixed them yet. :dunno:

Edit: I see this point has already been raised :doh:
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#870  Postby TMB » Nov 17, 2014 10:26 pm

Fallible wrote:
TMB wrote:
Fallible wrote:However there are lots of jobs in which ''ugliness' or traumatic sights are involved, such as police officer, nurse, doctor or paramedic, all of which women manage to 'deal with' to the same extent that men do.


Women are certainly more engaged in these activities, however the ugliness in military, police, firefighting and other dangerous activities is different to medicine due to the direct risks involved. In military terms the casualty rate is 2.5% women from these current US military figures,
mhttp://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22452.pdf

The police figures are 10% women, however this is still just 1 female in 10.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press- ... -assaulted

The figures in other high risk activities are similar and ths is quantified by the lower life expectancy than women because they engage in more high risk behavior than women do.

Only exceptional women del with this the way many men do. These roles are not the rule for women at this stage.


They are not 'the rule' for men either, since the majority of men are not employed in high risk roles. More realistically, only exceptional men and women deal with this.


You have missed the point, when one woman makes the cut for the top 100 in a golf tourney, then women are the exception and men the norm. Just as in the army, women that make the cut to be in the exceptional group will be exceptions, and men will be the norm.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#871  Postby Sendraks » Nov 17, 2014 10:33 pm

TMB wrote:Just as in the army, women that make the cut to be in the exceptional group will be exceptions, and men will be the norm.


Well the exceptional men within an exceptional group are still far from the norm.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#872  Postby Fallible » Nov 17, 2014 10:33 pm

I haven't missed any point. I made a specific comment about your comment about the ugliness of war. You're shifting the goalposts first to 'high risk activities' and now to 'golf tourneys'. You were trying to make out first that women wouldn't be able to hack nasty things in war like men can, and then that when women 'deal with this', it's 'the way men do' because it's 'the rule' for men to be employed in high risk roles. It isn't. More men are not employed in such roles than are. The people in high risk roles are normally men. That's different.

And now it occurs to me, if men were so well equipped to deal with the ugliness of war, why do they have so many well documented mental health issues in relation to it, up to and including suicide? Have your cake and eat it, you cannot.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#873  Postby TMB » Nov 17, 2014 10:37 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Women give birth. That's risky and ugly. Most of them aren't traumatised permanently by the experience.

So what is your point you are making here?
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#874  Postby Sendraks » Nov 18, 2014 10:06 am

TMB wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Women give birth. That's risky and ugly. Most of them aren't traumatised permanently by the experience.

So what is your point you are making here?


That women get involved in risky and ugly stuff on a regular basis and are not traumatised by it.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#875  Postby TMB » Nov 18, 2014 10:46 am

Sendraks wrote:
TMB wrote:.I disagree. There is plenty of literature supporting mens higher propensity for risky behavior than women. To argue differently ignores the effects of biology on our behavior. Do you want some evidence for this or can you find it yourself?


Certainly in the fields of "extreme sports" there does indeed appear to be a higher percentage of men taking part. Whether this is because men are more "drawn" to these kinds of activities than women or whether it is because there are barriers to women taking part (which doesn't necessarily mean only active discrimination by men, but other factors at play) is probably impossible to determine with any accuracy or validity.

However, let us entertain for the moment then men do such things because it is in their nature to do so. Why is that an equality issue?


If you were open to the idea I think you could easily argue a case for males having a biological propensity to engage in high risky behaviors of this this particular type, relative to females. Note that getting pregnant is a high risk activity of a different type. Either from the higher risk of death or injury to the mother, as well as the risks associated with supporting a defendant. In the case of pregnancy, biology is more obvious than male high risk behaviors. On the other hand if you are not open to to this idea, no amount of logic will sway you.

Gender equality is about opportunity and outcomes, that allow us to measure how each gender fares. Our biology and enculturation affect both opportunity and outcome. The tennis example shows that Wimbledon offer women an unequal opportunity, and an equal outcome in terms of prize and this is due to different biology.

If men are better equipped to be soldiers, or athletes or sports,en, or firemen, they might be getting exploited to take advantage of these abilities without getting equal redress.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#876  Postby TMB » Nov 18, 2014 10:54 am

Nicko wrote:
Fallible wrote:However there are lots of jobs in which ''ugliness' or traumatic sights are involved, such as police officer, nurse, doctor or paramedic, all of which women manage to 'deal with' to the same extent that men do.


My point exactly.

If anything, the perception that men deal with traumatic events "better" than women is based more on societal indifference to the pain of "broken" men - based on norms of male stoicism - rather than any actual observation of male "toughness".


I did not mean to imply that men come out the other side of these things better, more that they are more effective at doing physical things, like sport, athletics, fighting and soldiering. It's possible that men then suffer more than women, however we have less data about how women are traumatized when they come back from war and how they have been affected through the killing of others and risking their lives. Women do get men to commit murder for them more than the reverse, but this does not mean they are less or more able to stomach the psychological impact.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#877  Postby Sendraks » Nov 18, 2014 11:03 am

TMB wrote:If you were open to the idea I think you could easily argue a case for males having a biological propensity to engage in high risky behaviors of this this particular type, relative to females.


I'm sure you could, indeed I've already intimated that such a propensity might exist. The extent to which that is more of a factor over various other social factors is much harder to determine. Without a sizeable amount of research material at your disposal, all that can be offered is your conjecture and given that is tainted by your very obvious bias, I'm not convinced you can pursue this logically.

TMB wrote: Note that getting pregnant is a high risk activity of a different type.

Yes and because it is of a different type, it is not a comparator with men engaging in "extreme sports" or other such activities.

TMB wrote:Gender equality is about opportunity and outcomes, that allow us to measure how each gender fares.


Equality is about treating people the same in spite of their differences.
Equality is also about recognising that people are different and sometimes these differences have to be accommodated.

I realise that you want equality to mean something different, because that is the crux of your argument. I would suggest that if you want to discuss equality policy and legislation and have a logical debate about it, you start another thread. No logical discussion can take place as long as you're trying to drag everything down to your illogical lowest common denominator of trying to demonise women.

TMB wrote:If men are better equipped to be soldiers, or athletes or sports,en, or firemen, they might be getting exploited to take advantage of these abilities without getting equal redress.

That is a matter for their employers then, yes?
After all, being a soldier is a decidedly higher risk activity than being a premier league footballer, but the former gets paid decidedly less. Then inequality in pay there has NOTHING to do with a gender issue at all. If you're so concerned about men in high risk roles getting fairly recompensed for what they do, then you're barking up the wrong tree implying that women are the problem.

So lets see how many worthwhile discussions could we be having in other threads which I've suggested you start. Issues you claim to care about.

Male Suicide
Equality Policy
Equality in redress for men undertaking high risk roles vs those in higher paid lower risk professions.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#878  Postby Sendraks » Nov 18, 2014 11:05 am

TMB wrote: Men are more willing to commit murder for women than the reverse, but this does not mean they are less or more able to stomach the psychological impact.


F.I.F.Y

Well not really, just turning the words around to point out that the data can be interpreted in more than one way, and that the other ways do not have to have an anti-women bias. You know, if you want to approach the matter logically.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#879  Postby TMB » Nov 18, 2014 11:07 am

OlivierK wrote:
TMB wrote:There is plenty of literature supporting mens higher propensity for risky behavior than women. To argue differently ignores the effects of biology on our behavior. Do you want some evidence for this or can you find it yourself?

If you're convinced that men's greater propensity to indulge in risky behaviour is rooted in biology and is responsible for these sorts of outcomes (and I'd agree with that to a certain degree), then surely those outcomes are not things that you can lay at the feet of feminists and ask why they haven't fixed them yet. :dunno:

Edit: I see this point has already been raised :doh:


Feminism claims they are seeking equality between the genders, opportunity and outcomes. If this is the case they will be seeking this even if it relates to biology. This has been done in some sport and athletics. Due the biological differences, women and men are segregated, but they still seek equal reward/outcomes. If men's biology leads them to be more inclined to undertake risky behaviors, and woman either benefit or support this, should feminism not be trying to ensure equal outcomes?

Since i dont think feminism is trying to get equality, but instead are simply trying to get more of anything for themselves and all women, then in this case they will do nothing to address this inequity because it is not in their interests.
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Re: "Ironic Misandry" (and idiotic feminism)

#880  Postby TMB » Nov 18, 2014 11:11 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Obviously, we can all make matters better by encouraging certain behaviours and moving away from gender essentialist ideas of what a manly man person is supposed to be so everyone needs to modify their behaviour in that respect.

If the men whose lives could be vastly improved are going to dig in their heels when people suggest opening up about feelings and seeking counsel when concerned about something and say this is man shaming though there's really nothing anyone can do to help.


The behavior of both men and women is related. Suggesting that men should simply change deeply socialized (and fuelled by biology) is simplistic and naive. This is like suggesting to women that they not worry about their looks, to drop the cosmetics and clothing industry because it's a clearly useless endeavor. Nce again competition between women and men's interest in how women look means we have no way of simply switching behaviors off just because we wish it to be that way.
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