Is pedophilia natural?

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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#21  Postby james1v » May 22, 2016 1:49 am

Is it natural? No. Breeding wise, fucking a child, who is not fertile, is barking mad. That's why barking mad people try to justify the rape of children
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#22  Postby Darwinsbulldog » May 22, 2016 2:13 am

james1v wrote:Is it natural? No. Breeding wise, fucking a child, who is not fertile, is barking mad. That's why barking mad people try to justify the rape of children

Well, what else can you expect from complex brains designed by evolution?

There is not much functionality [as far as procreation goes] in having sex where children are not likely: a man having sex with a man, or with a female before or after her reproductive years.
Genetic input into behavior is usually of the "channeling" sort, rather than determining specifics. In the absence of suitable mates, male beetles will sometimes try to hump a rock.
Short version, no behavior is "unnatural".
But sex is used for a lot more than procreation. In bonobos, it is used to build friendship or lessen conflict, irrespective of gender.

In any case the "evolutionary psychology" approach does not give us any real insights, because pedophilia as a problem seems to be a mix of social and personal ills in modern society. The sexualization of almost everything in advertisements, the warped sexual values of religions that try and make people think sex is dirty or sinful.

Religions warp ordinary human values so much that I think some lose their natural moral compasses. Most people do not want to kill, but you can ask some to kill for god. Most people would not be homophobic, except when they are taught to be by religious clerics. Most people would not offer their daughters for sex with rapists, to prevent a man being raped. Most people would not consign their first-born to the flames, unless their god demanded it. Most people don't rape kids, because its wrong. Even if their religion approves of it.
Holy books don't teach us well about physical or moral reality, and tend to compromise our understanding of both. Add that to a species where psychosis, delusions, paranoia and aggression are never far from the surface, and you get bad shit happening.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#23  Postby james1v » May 22, 2016 2:34 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
james1v wrote:Is it natural? No. Breeding wise, fucking a child, who is not fertile, is barking mad. That's why barking mad people try to justify the rape of children

Well, what else can you expect from complex brains designed by evolution?

There is not much functionality [as far as procreation goes] in having sex where children are not likely: a man having sex with a man, or with a female before or after her reproductive years.
Genetic input into behavior is usually of the "channeling" sort, rather than determining specifics. In the absence of suitable mates, male beetles will sometimes try to hump a rock.
Short version, no behavior is "unnatural".
But sex is used for a lot more than procreation. In bonobos, it is used to build friendship or lessen conflict, irrespective of gender.

In any case the "evolutionary psychology" approach does not give us any real insights, because pedophilia as a problem seems to be a mix of social and personal ills in modern society. The sexualization of almost everything in advertisements, the warped sexual values of religions that try and make people think sex is dirty or sinful.

Religions warp ordinary human values so much that I think some lose their natural moral compasses. Most people do not want to kill, but you can ask some to kill for god. Most people would not be homophobic, except when they are taught to be by religious clerics. Most people would not offer their daughters for sex with rapists, to prevent a man being raped. Most people would not consign their first-born to the flames, unless their god demanded it. Most people don't rape kids, because its wrong. Even if their religion approves of it.
Holy books don't teach us well about physical or moral reality, and tend to compromise our understanding of both. Add that to a species where psychosis, delusions, paranoia and aggression are never far from the surface, and you get bad shit happening.


Thanks for the lecture. :cheers: Sex is, I admit, complicated. When it comes to having it with pre - pubescent's It isn't.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#24  Postby Darwinsbulldog » May 22, 2016 3:21 am

james1v wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:
james1v wrote:Is it natural? No. Breeding wise, fucking a child, who is not fertile, is barking mad. That's why barking mad people try to justify the rape of children

Well, what else can you expect from complex brains designed by evolution?

There is not much functionality [as far as procreation goes] in having sex where children are not likely: a man having sex with a man, or with a female before or after her reproductive years.
Genetic input into behavior is usually of the "channeling" sort, rather than determining specifics. In the absence of suitable mates, male beetles will sometimes try to hump a rock.
Short version, no behavior is "unnatural".
But sex is used for a lot more than procreation. In bonobos, it is used to build friendship or lessen conflict, irrespective of gender.

In any case the "evolutionary psychology" approach does not give us any real insights, because pedophilia as a problem seems to be a mix of social and personal ills in modern society. The sexualization of almost everything in advertisements, the warped sexual values of religions that try and make people think sex is dirty or sinful.

Religions warp ordinary human values so much that I think some lose their natural moral compasses. Most people do not want to kill, but you can ask some to kill for god. Most people would not be homophobic, except when they are taught to be by religious clerics. Most people would not offer their daughters for sex with rapists, to prevent a man being raped. Most people would not consign their first-born to the flames, unless their god demanded it. Most people don't rape kids, because its wrong. Even if their religion approves of it.
Holy books don't teach us well about physical or moral reality, and tend to compromise our understanding of both. Add that to a species where psychosis, delusions, paranoia and aggression are never far from the surface, and you get bad shit happening.


Thanks for the lecture. :cheers: Sex is, I admit, complicated. When it comes to having it with pre - pubescent's It isn't.


I agree that the immorality of sex with minors is quite straight-forward. It is wrong. The reasons/mechanisms behind such behaviors are not. :thumbup:
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#25  Postby Macdoc » May 22, 2016 4:51 am

It's "illegal" in this society, at this time and it remains outside the current morality. Yet the models get sexed up younger and younger.

It's also not a choice so needs to be treated in those that cannot curb their impulses.....no easy task balancing the person versus society.

Kids are sexualized very early and puberty onset is earlier and earlier. But at puberty kids ARE sexual creatures...

Like prohibition ....moving age of consent up and up just pushes it underground and into criminals hands or destroys/damages some young people's lives caught up in the legal system.

So the choice becomes underground exploitation which like the sex trade goes on and will go on or lower age of consent and education as some European nations have with some adopting gap rules which I think is one correct approach.

If a female is fertile or approaching fertility sexual interest is going to arise.....and it's not just one sided. A 14 year old daughter of very good friends of mine pranced down in a night shirt bent over to give her dad a good morning kiss and gave me a view right to her knees of her "new assets"...and looked me straight in eye.

After her departure to elsewhere her dad sighed about the "atmosphere" raw sex around here......she was trying out her new bod on all and sundry ...what to do??

Local mentally challenged boy caught whiff of her "ready for sex" state and assaulted her tho she was okay later and don't think there was and criminal charges laid due his disability.

Some cultures, families, society attempt to suppress what should be an exciting time for a young person....putting criminality into the picture ......there is simply no easy answers.

To answer the OP.....I'm not sure it's not already as it would be with lesser laws....sexual exploitatino at younger and younger ages.

http://elitedaily.com/envision/girl-you ... os/864978/

Now her mom started her modeling at 3.

Laissez faire??....pretty much when it comes to young girls......the make up and clothes available ......hey - it's reality TV in US of A.

So just how different would it be??? ......could it be.????? dunno

I don't see denying it or trying to suppress "young sex" is a useful approach...and in some cases it still remains endemic - explotiation of youngsters organized at the highest levels.

Child sex abuse conspiracy claims rattle Britain's political elite


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britai ... EK20140708

then there are the priests... :nono:
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#26  Postby I'm With Stupid » May 22, 2016 7:12 am

Beatsong wrote:Clearly there are examples of men being sexually attracted to 12 year old girls so such attraction is natural. As for how many more men would experience such attraction if there were no social stigma attached, I'm not sure how we could possibly know.

I think that the point the OP was making, and what he actually meant by normal, was that "all" men are attracted to 12 year old girls (as far as you can say all men can be attracted to anything). Certainly, the claim that 80% of men would have sex with them if there were no consequences would suggest that. My reaction is that that does seem slightly young. Certainly, we can judge attractiveness from a very young age, hence why we have child models. But at what age sexual attractiveness starts is another question, and like puberty itself, is likely to be a gradual process. 12 might be an age where you could say most men might to start noticing a girl as a sexual being, particularly if she's an early developer, but to me, most kids that age still look like kids.

One thing that is sure, however, is that you can't ask men themselves, because the social stigma affects their answers. One study showed two groups of men identical pictures of girls/women. When the men were told that the woman was 20, they consistently ranked her as more attractive than when they were told she was 14. And I think most men acknowledge and agree with the stigma as being there for a good reason, so they're happy to go along with it.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#27  Postby Spinozasgalt » May 22, 2016 9:35 am

No, pedophilia is unnatural, because it frustrates the proper ends of the sexual organs. Or some Catholic shit.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#28  Postby Fallible » May 22, 2016 10:35 am

Can I just point out that paedophilia is not illegal, as I've seen a couple of posters now say it is. Behaviours resultant from it are.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#29  Postby Fallible » May 22, 2016 10:40 am

And after macdoc's post can I also make the point that paedophilia is sexual attraction to children who are PRE-PUBESCENT - in other words, it is sexual attraction to male or female children precisely because they show no signs of the development of primary or secondary sexual characteristics brought about by puberty. There is a different term for those attracted to pubescent youngsters - ephebophilia.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#30  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 22, 2016 2:20 pm

Beatsong wrote:
Another way of saying this is that everything that exists is evolutionarily advantageous by definition - either in itself, or because developing the opposite trait would have used some resource or conferred some disadvantage even greater - because it exists.

Not really, a trait only needs to be neutral.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#31  Postby John Platko » May 22, 2016 2:56 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:No, pedophilia is unnatural, because it frustrates the proper ends of the sexual organs. Or some Catholic shit.


:nono: That's not how our Catholic "shit" works. :picard: Post menopause women can still have sex without offending God- according to Catholic doctrine- as long as sex ends in the approved way of course. And I see no reason why symmetry wouldn't hold on the other end of the spectrum. So, it is not final cause that protects children from such abuse but rather the Sacrament of Marriage which Catholic doctrine prescribes all sex must be shrouded in.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#32  Postby Briton » May 22, 2016 3:09 pm

OnkelCannabia wrote:I had a professor once who mentioned a study claiming that a large amount (maybe 80%, I'm not sure) of men would have sex with a 12-year-old girl if there was no social stigma behind it. The prof was teaching some minor course on the side and I only visited that one lecture, so I have no idea about his credentials. I couldn't find that study though and didn't want to search to hard. Might sound paranoid, but I don't want to end up on some watch list, by excessively googleing pedophilia.

Anyway, whether it is true or not, it got me to think. Marrying underage girls seemed to be the norm in many societies throughout history and sex was pretty much implied. In catholic societies marriage had even to be consummated by sex. It seems that sex with minors is also rather common in many tribal societies, but to be honest I don't really know a lot about that besides hearsay. We stigmatize somebody who has these urges to be a pervert or much worse, but is the interest in a minor actually a perversion or do most people just convince themselves they have no interest because of the social repercussions. I've heard from many people who grew up thinking gay sex is disgusting only to later in life find out they are bisexual. Could the same thing be happening here? Why else would it have been common in the past and considered a perversion today? Or do I just have my history wrong?

So what does the science say? Are we repressing our natural instincts because of social stigma and are actually biologically inclined to sex with minors or is pedophilia actually an abnormality? Society would like to tell us it is the later, but if I look back in history it seems more like the former.


'Underage' and 'minor' are false constructs that we have decided to adhere to (with good reason). Paedophilia is being attracted to prepubescent children, not someone below an arbitrary age. You see people labeled as pedophiles because they have sex with young women under 16. Although they are sex offenders, they are not paedophiles, at least not based on that crime alone.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#33  Postby Animavore » May 22, 2016 3:17 pm

laklak wrote:Good question. There's "natural", as in "100% Natural Organic", and "natchel", as in "like a natchel man".

There's cynical and there's Lak. :lol:

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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#34  Postby Calilasseia » May 22, 2016 3:32 pm

I'm tempted to suggest that from a scientific standpoint, paedophilia could be a paraphilic by-product of the tension between two different male organismal goals. The first being to mate with as many females as possible, the second being paternity assurance of offspring. That second goal is most simply solved by being the first to impregnate a female. All you need is for the cognitive wiring for this to be skewed, and hey presto.

Add to this the tendency exhibited in a range of organisms toward what's known as paedomorphosis (i.e., juvenile features to persist in the adult), and I'd say there's the foundations for some serious research to investigate this.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#35  Postby Beatsong » May 22, 2016 4:05 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Beatsong wrote:
Another way of saying this is that everything that exists is evolutionarily advantageous by definition - either in itself, or because developing the opposite trait would have used some resource or conferred some disadvantage even greater - because it exists.

Not really, a trait only needs to be neutral.


It doesn't even need to be that really. It only needs to be less disadvantageous than the total cost of developing a better trait (since traits don't develop in isolation).

What I meant was that everything that exists is, by definition, more advantageous than the other things that theoretically could have existed instead.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#36  Postby igorfrankensteen » May 22, 2016 4:31 pm

Fallible wrote:Can I just point out that paedophilia is not illegal, as I've seen a couple of posters now say it is. Behaviours resultant from it are.



Well, sort of. But if you go down that road, then almost NOTHING is actually illegal. We don't outlaw thinking that stealing is okay or good, we outlaw the action.

And since with pedophilia, we DO outlaw more than just direct attacks on real children, I would suggest that if we ever reach the point where we can detect pedophilia in the mind directly, that we will outlaw that as well.

As to sexuality itself, there is really only one person who's sexuality any of us can know everything about, and that is ourselves.

In my own case, I know that I was effectively sexually attracted (exclusively) to females, from very early on. I recall fantasizing about what other girls in my first form class looked like naked, when I was about six. Now, since I don't recall having erections that early (I may have, and not known what they were), calling that "sexual attraction" might be a bit misleading.

I observed myself rather constantly through my life, and I found that I did NOT, in fact, require externally applied restrictions or inhibitions, in order to cease finding very young girls sexually interesting, that happened very "naturally." At no time did I find myself saying "ooh, better not imagine that five year old naked!" Instead, I became more and more energetically focused on young women who were a bit older than I was, and ceased having sexuality even cross my mind when I was looking at little girls.

I actually tried to chart for a while, comparing how rapidly my lower limit of attraction would rise, to how rapidly ,my upper limit would do so. There were definite variations and differences between the two. During earlier passages of my life, the lower end of interest would move up more quickly than the upper end would. That lasted through most of my teen years, after which the upper limit rose much more quickly.

Anyway. My main point is, that my own experience directly shows me that pedophilia is NOT common, and NOT "natural," and is NOT held in check by social mores alone.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#37  Postby Fallible » May 22, 2016 5:19 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:
Fallible wrote:Can I just point out that paedophilia is not illegal, as I've seen a couple of posters now say it is. Behaviours resultant from it are.



Well, sort of. But if you go down that road, then almost NOTHING is actually illegal. We don't outlaw thinking that stealing is okay or good, we outlaw the action.


Yes, that's right. Nothing is illegal when it comes to thought, never mind almost nothing. No attraction is illegal. It's the acts based on the thoughts and attractions which are illegal. There is no 'sort of' about it.

And since with pedophilia, we DO outlaw more than just direct attacks on real children, I would suggest that if we ever reach the point where we can detect pedophilia in the mind directly, that we will outlaw that as well.


This is a non-sequitur, as far as I can see. What does doing more than outlawing direct attacks on real children have to do with outlawing thoughts? Secondly, I'd be interested to see you come up with anything which is outlawed regarding paedophilia that is not an action/behaviour. I can't, but perhaps I'm missing something.

As to sexuality itself, there is really only one person who's sexuality any of us can know everything about, and that is ourselves.

In my own case, I know that I was effectively sexually attracted (exclusively) to females, from very early on. I recall fantasizing about what other girls in my first form class looked like naked, when I was about six. Now, since I don't recall having erections that early (I may have, and not known what they were), calling that "sexual attraction" might be a bit misleading.

I observed myself rather constantly through my life, and I found that I did NOT, in fact, require externally applied restrictions or inhibitions, in order to cease finding very young girls sexually interesting, that happened very "naturally." At no time did I find myself saying "ooh, better not imagine that five year old naked!" Instead, I became more and more energetically focused on young women who were a bit older than I was, and ceased having sexuality even cross my mind when I was looking at little girls.

I actually tried to chart for a while, comparing how rapidly my lower limit of attraction would rise, to how rapidly ,my upper limit would do so. There were definite variations and differences between the two. During earlier passages of my life, the lower end of interest would move up more quickly than the upper end would. That lasted through most of my teen years, after which the upper limit rose much more quickly.

Anyway. My main point is, that my own experience directly shows me that pedophilia is NOT common, and NOT "natural," and is NOT held in check by social mores alone.


I'm not sure how you can make this claim after also making the claim that the only sexuality one can truly know is one's own. Not that I disagree with you necessarily that paedophilia is not common. It's just that you represent too small a sample size to reach such a conclusion. As for it not being held in check by social mores alone, I don't know how that relates to your personal experiences, since you never seem to have had paedophilic tendencies to begin with, so nothing to be held in check. Also, of course, it often is not held in check much at all.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#38  Postby tuco » May 22, 2016 5:40 pm

5 year old?
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#39  Postby crank » May 22, 2016 6:03 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
But sex is used for a lot more than procreation. In bonobos, it is used to build friendship or lessen conflict, irrespective of gender.

Irrespective of age also. Young bonobos offer comforting hugs and sex

One wonders how humans would have turned out if we used sex as opposed to aggression to resolve conflicts.

I've seen studies, can't remember where it was long ago, but it involved attaching a Penile plethysmograph, a hardonometer, to males and testing for what aged girls resulted in arousal as measured by the device. The age was fairly young, don't remember, but like 13 for 60% maybe 80% of men. It's going to result in a lot of false positives just because of how males will often respond to things that just resemble whatever their sexual attraction is.

I don't see how you can say that attraction to sexually mature females is unnatural in any way. Is it really less 'natural' than for a very large man to be attracted to a very small woman? Experience on a thread at RDF tells me many have a highly reactive, and unreasonable, responses to any topics related to this. It was about a guy who got thrown in prison for taking the pictures in a catalog and cutting out kids heads and pasting them on adults bodies. [It was, I think, a person on probation for a sex offense, so he technically was breaking probation, or parole???, but the discussion, and the reality in law, didn't make the distinction] This is thought crime and it shouldn't take too much thinking to realize how dangerous going down that lane is, it ain't a world you'd want to live in.
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Re: Is pedophilia natural?

#40  Postby Beatsong » May 22, 2016 7:35 pm

igorfrankensteen wrote:In my own case, I know that I was effectively sexually attracted (exclusively) to females, from very early on. I recall fantasizing about what other girls in my first form class looked like naked, when I was about six. Now, since I don't recall having erections that early (I may have, and not known what they were), calling that "sexual attraction" might be a bit misleading.

I observed myself rather constantly through my life, and I found that I did NOT, in fact, require externally applied restrictions or inhibitions, in order to cease finding very young girls sexually interesting, that happened very "naturally." At no time did I find myself saying "ooh, better not imagine that five year old naked!" Instead, I became more and more energetically focused on young women who were a bit older than I was, and ceased having sexuality even cross my mind when I was looking at little girls.

I actually tried to chart for a while, comparing how rapidly my lower limit of attraction would rise, to how rapidly ,my upper limit would do so. There were definite variations and differences between the two. During earlier passages of my life, the lower end of interest would move up more quickly than the upper end would. That lasted through most of my teen years, after which the upper limit rose much more quickly.

Anyway. My main point is, that my own experience directly shows me that pedophilia is NOT common, and NOT "natural," and is NOT held in check by social mores alone.


I'm not arguing with the last bit - I certainly think finding five-year-olds sexually attractive is extremely uncommon (although that wasn't the age used in the OP). Actually I think your early experience is uncommon; I don't think most children of that age are sexually attracted to each other or imagine each other naked.

But the experience you've described doesn't justify your conclusion. All your experience shows you is that you personally don't experience attraction to children, not that it isn't common amongst others.
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