Left or Right?

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Re: Left or Right?

#21  Postby Nostalgia » Mar 18, 2012 4:35 am

Animavore wrote:
chairman bill wrote:How on earth does that follow? Imagine a similar statement made about murderous tendancies, with the x axis showing a variation from 'psychopathic', through something like 'murderous', to 'violent tendancies', and onto an extreme of 'peace-loving'. By your analysis, the ideal position would be somewhere between murderous & violent tendancies.

No. It's more like a curve between two sets of opinions than between two pathologies. Say between, "Cheese is awful shite which should be eradicated," and, "Cheese is the best stuff ever, people who don't agree are arseholes.' With most people falling between.


Cheese IS the best stuff ever and those who don't agree ARE arseholes!

Saim wrote:Except ideas don't actually exist on a left-right spectrum that's just a simplified way of thinking about it. Not to mention our political ideologies are specific to our time period.


:this:

Even when taking into consideration the Y axis of libertarianism vs authoritarianism as well as the X axis of right vs left these are just labels. I consider myself when pushed to a left-of-centre liberal. If you were to dilute my opinions into two sentences they would be: The rich should be taxed proportionally higher than the poor but not so much as you drive them out of the country. As long as my actions are not hurting someone else then these actions should be legal.

But that's just it. These labels dilute what are often incredibly complex opinions. I often find myself agreeing with right wing people and disagreeing with lefties. But I would be in my cold, damp grave before I ever voted for the Tories.
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Re: Left or Right?

#22  Postby Mr.Samsa » Mar 18, 2012 9:42 am

laklak wrote:
Mr.Samsa wrote:
"Bob says we should buy a computer. Sue says we shouldn't. Therefore, the best solution is to compromise and buy half a computer."


Sue should just STFU and listen to Bob. Just sayin.


That's racist.
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Re: Left or Right?

#23  Postby THWOTH » Mar 18, 2012 1:08 pm

:lol:
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Re: Left or Right?

#24  Postby van00uber » Mar 20, 2012 12:04 pm

Landrew wrote:Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Thank God most of us are somewhere in between.
Those two couldn't exist without our constant support.


seems like a very simplistic analagy, and I wouldn't thank god for anything.
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Re: Left or Right?

#25  Postby Landrew » Mar 20, 2012 12:36 pm

van00uber wrote:
Landrew wrote:Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Thank God most of us are somewhere in between.
Those two couldn't exist without our constant support.


seems like a very simplistic analagy, and I wouldn't thank god for anything.

Thank fate then. I use "god" as a euphemism for the universe, as Einstein did.
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Re: Left or Right?

#26  Postby van00uber » Mar 20, 2012 1:13 pm

capitalism is one of our greatest achievements as a species, I think that its unfair to describe it as simply taking other peoples money. Seems a bit immature
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Re: Left or Right?

#27  Postby mattthomas » Mar 20, 2012 1:25 pm

I disagree with your descriptions so I offer my own
Landrew wrote:
Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Someone who believes in spending everyone's money for everyone's benefit

Landrew wrote:
Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Someone who believes in offering to provide a product or service in return for other peoples money
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Re: Left or Right?

#28  Postby van00uber » Mar 20, 2012 1:39 pm

well said
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Re: Left or Right?

#29  Postby mindhack » Mar 20, 2012 4:08 pm

Landrew wrote:
van00uber wrote:
Landrew wrote:Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Thank God most of us are somewhere in between.
Those two couldn't exist without our constant support.


seems like a very simplistic analagy, and I wouldn't thank god for anything.

Thank fate then. I use "god" as a euphemism for the universe, as Einstein did.

You believe socialists and capitalists were predetermined? :ask:
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Re: Left or Right?

#30  Postby Landrew » Mar 25, 2012 9:29 pm

mindhack wrote:
Landrew wrote:
van00uber wrote:
Landrew wrote:Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Thank God most of us are somewhere in between.
Those two couldn't exist without our constant support.


seems like a very simplistic analagy, and I wouldn't thank god for anything.

Thank fate then. I use "god" as a euphemism for the universe, as Einstein did.

You believe socialists and capitalists were predetermined? :ask:

Well, I can't think how human civilization could function without some sort of blend of the two.

I think it may have existed in the Stone Age, when all you had to do was go and take something from someone else. A zero-sum game. Wait, that's pure Socialism, isn't it? Or is it pure Capitalism? I'm not sure.
Last edited by Landrew on Mar 25, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Left or Right?

#31  Postby Clive Durdle » Mar 25, 2012 9:32 pm

I thought edumacation correlated with left wing.
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Re: Left or Right?

#32  Postby ahall12 » Mar 26, 2012 10:46 am

Landrew wrote:Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Thank God most of us are somewhere in between.
Those two couldn't exist without our constant support.


Pretty sure both of those apply to socialism and/or ultra statism. I'm failing to see how this thread is about the political left and right, however.
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Re: Left or Right?

#33  Postby Matt_B » Mar 26, 2012 11:04 am

van00uber wrote:capitalism is one of our greatest achievements as a species, I think that its unfair to describe it as simply taking other peoples money. Seems a bit immature


Quite. It's thanks to capitalism that we've got any money at all for people to spend or take from us. I suppose there are some people who think that's still a bad idea, but not really too many of them.

Anyway, I see the real issue is that both socialism and capitalism are idealist positions but that we don't live in an ideal world. Rather, most politics is done for realistic purposes, but dressed up as idealism for public consumption.
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Re: Left or Right?

#34  Postby Landrew » Mar 30, 2012 4:49 pm

Matt_B wrote:
van00uber wrote:capitalism is one of our greatest achievements as a species, I think that its unfair to describe it as simply taking other peoples money. Seems a bit immature


Quite. It's thanks to capitalism that we've got any money at all for people to spend or take from us. I suppose there are some people who think that's still a bad idea, but not really too many of them.

Anyway, I see the real issue is that both socialism and capitalism are idealist positions but that we don't live in an ideal world. Rather, most politics is done for realistic purposes, but dressed up as idealism for public consumption.

I don't think capitalism is an invention, it's just what happens when you trade. Whether you take it fairly or unfairly, it's still the process of acquiring other people's money by trading something for it.
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Re: Left or Right?

#35  Postby Minimolas » Nov 24, 2012 9:14 pm

Is this about left vs right or socialism against capitalism?
I can tell you that both Republicans and Democrats are coming off as huge socialists, even if they say they are different.

To clarify, the “Obama Cell Phone” program has provided 269,000 poor Americans with free phones and monthly service at a cost of over $1.6 billion dollars to the taxpayer, a figure that keeps rising every year.


Cause our taxes go towards building roads and hospitals, we need more taxes, we need to raise taxes! Taxes taxes taxes! Oh wait...taxes are being abused and our money is being stolen... :nono:

Socialism is horrible, it sounds nice: Share your money with everyone! However, everyone doesn't mean close family or friends, everyone includes everyone. Yes, that means all the assholes who take other peoples money because they think they are entitled to get a free paycheck and not have to work even though they are perfectly capable. (that's not everyone on welfare, but welfare is exploited like crazy)
Atheist. Anarcho-capitalist.
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Re: Left or Right?

#36  Postby proudfootz » Nov 26, 2012 1:00 am

Landrew wrote:Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.



These are just silly.

Socialism has nothing to do with 'spending other peoples' money'.

Capitalism isn't best described as simply 'taking other peoples' money'.

Seems like this was written by a libertarian.
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Re: Left or Right?

#37  Postby proudfootz » Nov 26, 2012 1:08 am

mattwilson wrote:I disagree with your descriptions so I offer my own
Landrew wrote:
Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Someone who believes in spending everyone's money for everyone's benefit

Landrew wrote:
Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Someone who believes in offering to provide a product or service in return for other peoples money


Much more in line with what the terms really refer to.

They're not even necessarily in complete opposition as AFAICT most modern societies are a mix of the two concepts.
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Re: Left or Right?

#38  Postby Minimolas » Nov 29, 2012 12:40 am

And I don't think either party is supposed to favor anything other than capitalism.
Atheist. Anarcho-capitalist.
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Re: Left or Right?

#39  Postby Shantanu » Dec 01, 2012 3:10 pm

Landrew wrote:Socialist: Someone who believes in spending other peoples' money.

Capitalist: Someone who believes in taking other peoples' money.

Thank God most of us are somewhere in between.
Those two couldn't exist without our constant support.


Is humanity not more fundamentally defined in terms of the choice we make between the extremes of 'altruism' (for socialism) and 'fittestism' (for capitalism) as our guide to living?
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Re: Left or Right?

#40  Postby Nicko » Dec 01, 2012 3:39 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:Indeed - it's called the golden mean fallacy, the idea that if two extremes exist, then the "correct" or "best" position is somewhere in between. As you correctly point out though, sometimes the most appropriate position is one of the extremes. For example:

"Bob says we should buy a computer. Sue says we shouldn't. Therefore, the best solution is to compromise and buy half a computer."


What a lot of people seem to have trouble understanding is that Aristotle's Golden Mean is a concept from virtue ethics, a method of problem solving. Aristotle's point was that virtues seem to occupy a position between the extremes of vice. Courage, for example, lying between cowardice (allowing fear to overwhelm you) and rashness (disregarding reasonable concern).

The idea was never meant to be applied to problems. Rather, the virtues derived from the application of the Golden Mean were what were to be considered (ie. "Is this action brave enough to not be cowardly, without being rash?" Attempting to follow a virtuous course can lead to quite extreme positions being taken on some subjects.

As I believe you have tried to point out.
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