Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#21  Postby felltoearth » Jan 12, 2019 6:41 pm

archibald wrote:
felltoearth wrote:I think as you are finding, this is a difficult question to answer mainly because the concept of god is incoherent, and inconsistent from person to person.


It is a difficult (though imo interesting) question, partly as you say because there is variegation, but variegation does not (I'm thinking) imply incoherence. Lots of things are variegated and complex. Arguably all human thinking and behaviour in fact.

I’m talking about the two as separate things. Variegated between people and incoherent in concept even within an individual. I have not found one person with a concept of god that does not have huge illogical gaps, paradoxes, or dissidence within their ideation.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#22  Postby romansh » Jan 12, 2019 7:21 pm

Well … this seems reminiscent of the atheism is a religion, and science requires faith type arguments.

Some put rationality and corroborating evidence on a metaphorical pedestal; either this is having a god or not is a matter of flowery semantics. These semantics might be very important to some or not. Flowery semantics is fine archibald.


edit

That some people rely on their god-faith, others rely on evidence and rationality, others their goddess of a wife.


Is it this reliance that you are treating as a behavioural synonym for god?
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#23  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 12, 2019 7:49 pm

archibald wrote:What interested me were the ways in which having a highest ideal might be, psychologically, like having a god.


There isn't a highest anything unless you're talking about a statistical sample. But hey, people can have a nice convo about my highest can beat your highest. A Smith & Wesson beats four aces, and even if you have a S &W, somebody's always going to come along and outgun you. Without that kind of joking around, "highest ideal" just means "this year's model". People change. God is supposed to be something unchanging, so maybe that's the direction you might take it, but we all know how people just sometimes give up believing in god, and more often give up their highest ideals when nobody's looking. Maybe you could find a way to make an analogy between somebody's pet platitude and god, as a way of figuring out what people denote by their 'gods'.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#24  Postby jamest » Jan 15, 2019 12:30 am

archibald wrote:“The highest ideal that a person holds - either consciously or subconsciously - that is their god”

Discuss.

To get the ball rolling, consider.......rationality. Let's say a lot of people do (and have, perhaps especially many philosophers) considered this as something of an ideal, the idea of a rational man (person, obviously). Many atheists may be included here, I'm suggesting.

Of course, by 'god' we don't mean a supernatural, controlling entity, we mean something which might be called a 'drive' or a psychological force. Perhaps those aren't even the right words. But something that effectively acts in many of the same ways (perhaps not all) as a god, or indeed, in some ways, as a religion, as something...dare I say...revered, possibly even sacred (in a secular sense). Possibly even worshipped, no matter how controversial that may sound (and I'm sure it will, to some, it does even to me).

Now consider this. There is no such thing as a rational human. It does not exist.

How the fuck are you going to prove that point except by reason? :nono:

Further, as Voltaire said, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him".

That's the sort of stunt that cunts like Trump do to manipulate people. Politics has, essentially, always been about the art of manipulating the hearts of the masses to sustain the power of very few people, even one.

There IS a rational perspective of the concept of God, devoid of any religious bias. I know this because I freqeunt no church and have yet tried to explain this myself. The following link was 6 years ago, for instance. http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philo ... l#p1772771

Your thread is for room 101, regardless. You cannot use reason to determine that reason is shit. It's self-destructive.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#25  Postby felltoearth » Jan 15, 2019 3:20 am

Oh, fun is back.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#26  Postby romansh » Jan 15, 2019 5:29 am

felltoearth wrote:Oh, fun is back.

It would appear James' belief in his concept of God is not helping him very much, as a person that is.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#27  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 15, 2019 10:06 am

jamest wrote:You cannot use reason to determine that reason is shit. It's self-destructive.


I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#28  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 15, 2019 12:08 pm

felltoearth wrote:Oh, fun is back.


Ratz will be glad.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#29  Postby Joe » Jan 15, 2019 11:35 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Oh, fun is back.


Ratz will be glad.


That's likely so Scot. :lol:
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#30  Postby jamest » Jan 16, 2019 1:06 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Oh, fun is back.


Ratz will be glad.

I'm not finished dealing with ratz, especially you.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#31  Postby felltoearth » Jan 16, 2019 1:33 am

jamest wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Oh, fun is back.


Ratz will be glad.

I'm not finished dealing with ratz, especially you.


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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#32  Postby jamest » Jan 16, 2019 2:33 am

The elders are responsible for the future of the children, squirt squire. By addressing you, I am thinking of the children!
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#33  Postby Alan B » Jan 16, 2019 1:14 pm

Non-supernatural religion? Buddhism (in its earliest form)?

To me. Buddhism as practised today, seems to worship statues of Buddha as a god which I do not think was its original intent.

But read this: Buddhism from a Hindu perspective.

Buddhism believes in the existence of neither God nor soul in the theistic sense. It is essentially a religion of the mind, which advocates present moment awareness, inner purity, ethical conduct, freedom from the problem of change, impermanence and suffering, and reliance upon one's own experience and discernment on the Eightfold path as the teacher and guide, rather than an external authority other than the Dhamma. One may take guidance from a teacher, but insightful awareness and experiential knowledge of the Dhamma are vital to progress on the path.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#34  Postby felltoearth » Jan 16, 2019 2:55 pm

jamest wrote:The elders are responsible for the future of the children, squirt squire. By addressing you, I am thinking of the children!

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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#35  Postby Fallible » Jan 16, 2019 8:41 pm

:rofl:
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#36  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 17, 2019 8:32 am

archibald wrote:“The highest ideal that a person holds - either consciously or subconsciously - that is their god”

Discuss.


Well, look at this fantastic shit:

jamest wrote:That is: God is the totality of existence.


One fellow wants to link god with the words the highest ideal that a person holds, and some other fellow wants to link god to the words the totality of existence. The words are not what Cali or whoever would call assertionist bollocks, except for the attempt to connect the phraseology to the word god. But there's no evidence that we should be looking for to support such assertions.

Whatever, but the words the highest ideals that a person holds and the words the totality of existence are both perfectly good wording for the concepts the highest ideals that a person holds or the totality of existence.

What a wonderful game, just so a person can say he believes in god without being certain he has totally embarrassed himself. It's not as if atheism entails not recognizing the totality of existence or the highest ideals that a person holds.

However, when somebody says "I lack belief in deities", that is not necessarily accounted for. Perhaps what the atheist means to say is that, no, these do not sastify my requirements for calling something god.

Me, I'm not waiting around for something to come along that I might be willing to call god. Do you see the shit that some people can get themselves into, trying to find a phrase that will induce me to call it god, just so they can say they found another person willing to name something god? This is an utter bunch of shit, and anyone who lacks belief in deities knows it.

felltoearth wrote:I have not found one person with a concept of god that does not have huge illogical gaps, paradoxes, or dissidence within their ideation.


That's certainly one way to look at the problem, but in order to critique someone's concept of god as incoherent we have to probe beyond phrases like the totality of existence or the highest ideals that a person holds. Anyone who wants to use such phraseology is then well-advised to stop there. What prevents that, of course, is the extra baggage of wanting existence to be intentional instead of stochastic. Then Hermit or scherado comes along and says, "I have no problem with god having left us a stochastic universe freighted with a purpose we just can't figure out with our limited ape brains".

archibald wrote:
On the other hand, if we are prepared to accept the word nonetheless (as it often colloquially is accepted) then we can still discuss it.


Not, of course, accepting it as a going concern. As Mose Allison sang, "If you must keep talking, please try to make it rhyme".
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#37  Postby felltoearth » Jan 17, 2019 2:43 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
That's certainly one way to look at the problem, but in order to critique someone's concept of god as incoherent we have to probe beyond phrases like the totality of existence or the highest ideals that a person holds.

Apropos of the forum’s recent obsession with ads:
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#38  Postby BWE » Jan 18, 2019 2:45 am

I think of God as the interface between in here and out there
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Re: Non-supernatural 'religion' and 'god'

#39  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 18, 2019 7:15 am

BWE wrote:I think of God as the interface between in here and out there


That interface is just all over the map...

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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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