Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#81  Postby Kenneth-Kaunda » Jul 07, 2012 10:38 am

z8000783 wrote:
How important you are is determined by other people. What does having a sense of self-importance do for you?
John


Plenty - it gives me a sense of mental solidity, conviction, confidence, self-assurance and the like.

All useful attributes for sure.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#82  Postby BlackBart » Jul 07, 2012 10:43 am

Fallible wrote:My thinking is that we have the need or want to self-preserve because we attach some importance to ourselves.


Ok, but last time you, were caught in the rain, was your general feeling "This is fucking horrible, I want to get in the warm" or did you think "I can't die of exposure, I'll be missed!"

Up that to the last time you were stalked by a lion ( :dopey:) Was there an Oscar Wildean, "I must elude this unkempt feline, for I am a genius!" or a big rush of adrenaline and an overwhelming urge to do an Usain Bolt?

I suspect most people would go for the Usain Bolt option, whether they had an an urge to be high up on a social importance scale or not.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#83  Postby Fallible » Jul 07, 2012 10:51 am

I like the rain. :teef:

Seriously though - what I'm saying is that why bother to take any notice of what you find horrible and find ways to avoid it unless you are important to you? I think I said in a previous post that relying on others for one's sense of imnportance is largely a mug's game, so I'm not talking about importance in the eyes of others as per your rain scenario and Wildean ejaculation ( :tehe: ). Both of those are self-preservation in one form or another, and what I'm saying is that underlying that is the feeling that you are worth taking care of/keeping safe, ie. you are important.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#84  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 11:50 am

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
babel wrote:
Well, you've admitted to making avances but also that you have only been booted. So much for your 'advance' you're showing. :clap:


I've given two hypothetical scenarios.

That of a man being rejected by all women, and another of a man being rejected by all employers.

The futile attempts, by some on this thread, to reduce the argument to a personal level are rather pointless as it changes nothing.

Let's just deal with the bigger picture.



Might it be something to do with the fact that you keep asserting that this is ubiquitous when it's clearly not?
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#85  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 11:54 am

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
z8000783 wrote:You are talking for other people again.

What is about YOUR ego specifically that requires it to be protected on occasion?

John


Of course I am talking for other people as well.


Yes, and not listening to them when they say that your claims just simply do not hold any validity to them.

Then you're playing the 'actually they do, but you're just doing exactly what I said to avoid it' card.

There's no way to have a genuine discussion here because you keep telling people how they think and what motivates them.

Perhaps you should start seriously considering the responses you're getting rather than just trying to fit them into your prepackaged ax-grinding?


Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:We are all human and all have egos - which function in a very similar way - certainly at the basic level at least.


If what you've written is an example of this similarity, then you're wrong, as you've been informed.


Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:Self-preservation is a part of our instinct.


Self-preservation does not equate to ego and rejection. Not to mentally healthy people. If a girl, or 100 girls reject me, or a company or 100 companies reject me... I do not engage in the type of response you seem to think is ubiquitous.

Please try and process that.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#86  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 11:56 am

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
One needs to protect one's ego in order to survive, or at least to avoid mental breakdown.


Now that is a stupid notion. If you have an ego that needs protection I would look at myself very carefully.

My ego does not need protection. Such a stupid thought. Really. Do you feel so vulnerable?


You are protecting your ego with this very post.

can't you see that?



See?

For fuck's sakes... and you claim that others are making this thread personal.

It's just projection.

Sorry, my internal state is actually not best predicted by you considering your internal state.

And this apparent desire to keep ramming your own interpretations down people's throats is just annoying and arrogant, not threatening.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#87  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 11:59 am

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
virphen wrote:
It appears to me that the OP is saying that, somehow, if someone is so unattractive in person and personality that he (and it does seem to be one sided on a gender basis, this half of it anyway) that one is, rather than investigating the real source of the problem and trying to examine their own behaviour, one is entitled to blame everyone else in the name of protecting one's ego. A massive exercise in self-deception.

One may as well start believing in gods.


If one is continually rejected by other members of society, through no fault of his own then he needs a mechanism to deal with it.

for instance, if one suffers from mental or physical impairment then why do they deserve rejection?


But for this argument to hold any water at all, this would need to be the standard occurrence, which it clearly isn't.


However, reading between the lines: if one is continually rejected by other members of their own society and continually maintain that it is through no fault of their own - they need to engage in some frank introspection.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#88  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 12:00 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Anyway that deity of yours do you have proof of its existance?

I have as much proof as you have of its non-existence.



Logic fail 101.

One doesn't need to prove the non-existence of something. The default assumption is that X doesn't exist unless there is positive evidence of its existence.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#89  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 12:03 pm

Fallible wrote:My thinking is that we have the need or want to self-preserve because we attach some importance to ourselves.


Quite. But apparently the problem the OP is having is that other people don't automatically engage the same degree of importance that the OP feels he is entitled to.

There's something fundamentally ironic going on in this thread, but it's so hard to parse most of the 'meat' of the thread, it's going to take a while to bring it out into the sunlight.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#90  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 12:04 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
z8000783 wrote:
How important you are is determined by other people. What does having a sense of self-importance do for you?
John


Plenty - it gives me a sense of mental solidity, conviction, confidence, self-assurance and the like.

All useful attributes for sure.



Hardly useful when all those senses are subject to the whims of other people's treatment of you.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#91  Postby BlackBart » Jul 07, 2012 12:57 pm

Fallible wrote:I like the rain. :teef:

Seriously though - what I'm saying is that why bother to take any notice of what you find horrible and find ways to avoid it unless you are important to you? I think I said in a previous post that relying on others for one's sense of imnportance is largely a mug's game, so I'm not talking about importance in the eyes of others as per your rain scenario and Wildean ejaculation ( :tehe: ). Both of those are self-preservation in one form or another, and what I'm saying is that underlying that is the feeling that you are worth taking care of/keeping safe, ie. you are important.


Do you like Pina Coladas too? :P

Ok, but isn't the Usain Bolt scenario, a hard-wired biological imperative rather than any conscious feeling towards oneself?

This is purely anecdotal, but I've seen a person who was known to have feelings of low self esteem and was suicidal jump out the way of a speeding car only to have a look of 'Doh!' on their face 10 seconds later.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#92  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 07, 2012 2:19 pm

BlackBart wrote:
Fallible wrote:I like the rain. :teef:

Seriously though - what I'm saying is that why bother to take any notice of what you find horrible and find ways to avoid it unless you are important to you? I think I said in a previous post that relying on others for one's sense of imnportance is largely a mug's game, so I'm not talking about importance in the eyes of others as per your rain scenario and Wildean ejaculation ( :tehe: ). Both of those are self-preservation in one form or another, and what I'm saying is that underlying that is the feeling that you are worth taking care of/keeping safe, ie. you are important.


Do you like Pina Coladas too? :P

Ok, but isn't the Usain Bolt scenario, a hard-wired biological imperative rather than any conscious feeling towards oneself?

This is purely anecdotal, but I've seen a person who was known to have feelings of low self esteem and was suicidal jump out the way of a speeding car only to have a look of 'Doh!' on their face 10 seconds later.



I should hope they would jump out of the way - it would hardly be good to die knowing that you even failed to commit suicide.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#93  Postby Godless Infidel » Jul 07, 2012 2:31 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
Godless Infidel wrote:
My shell is made of godless reality.

In this example, the collective ego is that of the indoctrinated and self deluded - those groups that fail to see through the fiction into the wider more interesting universe that is.



How do you know that you are not just deluding yourself by rejecting the notion of God?


I have found no situation or circumstance in which inserting the notion of god(s) explains anything. It's not so much rejecting the notion as having no reason to create the notion.


You say that the universe is more interesting without the fiction - how so?


All justifications for for belief in a deity can be boiled down to a god of the gaps argument. A god is inserted in place of uncomfortable unknowns. This is the reason science and religion constantly but heads. Accumulating human knowledge is the process of filling holes that were previously filled by simplistic notions of god.

You have started a few topics here in which you demonstrate that you are having trouble understanding morality without God. Can you spot the gap being filled here? This topic starts with asking about hatreds. You then assert that your magic god shield protects you from such. This ignores the fact that others have shown that they are likewise protected without the need to employ magic. All your shield really does end the more interesting investigation. You have your shield and your outdated Freudian model. No more investigation is necessary.

In another topic you construct a cartoon-like caricature of a rape intent "caveman" as though rape was/is (without god) the most common method of reproducing our species. This eliminates the more interesting question, Why is rape the exception and not the norm? Our ancestors, since before we would be considered human, have lived in close knit family groups. Your "caveman" would have depended on such a group for his survival and therefor future matings. His victim would likely have a mate(we do tend to pair-bond). This mate would be very opposed to your rape. The group would include other females. These would also not want a rapist in the group denying their ability to choose the father of their offspring. The group would include other males. They would surely be opposed to an individual who forcibly limits their chances of fathering offspring. It would be in the interest of the majority of the group to kill or drive off the rapist. Without the benefits of the group this one mating would likely be his last. Opportunity for evolved morals?

The above is speculation I admit. Interesting speculation that you need not need to indulge in because God is why we do not rape.


and I maintain that life is far more interesting when we take on board science AND God at the same time.


Where God is accepted as the answer there is no need for science. Where science investigates there is no need for God. The notion of God closes and locks the door on finding things more interesting.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#94  Postby z8000783 » Jul 07, 2012 2:33 pm

Fallible wrote:
z8000783 wrote:
Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:.... and sense of one's own importance.

That may be your problem right there.

How important you are is determined by other people. What does having a sense of self-importance do for you?

John

Gotta disagree there, John. Relying on other people to tell you how important you are is a recipe for distress, because your sense of self and self-worth would rise and fall according to the opinions of others, all of whom have their own agenda.

Absolutely agree with that. Of course it is also necessary to asses external input against you own standards, whatever they may be. Live you life according to only what people think of you and you will be a door mat. Live your life by only considering what you think is the correct way to live and you will end up deluded.

It has to be a combination of both and whilst I see many criteria being used when assessing these things, ‘importance’ is not one I recognise as carrying any value.

Fallible wrote:If you can accept that you are fundamentally important to yourself, this doesn't happen. Of course I'm not talking prima donna levels of self-importance here, just in the sense that you accept that you are a worthwhile individual with needs.

I think the distinction I see here is between importance and being worthwhile. The two are not synonymous. Importance has more to do with status whereas worth is about value to others.

Fallible wrote:As I said, most people see that they are important in some respect even if they don't like themselves much, or they wouldn't bother fulfilling basic needs like eating, drinking, sleeping and avoiding obvious dangers.

For me, those are mostly instinctive activities and whilst maintaining my ability to function don’t directly impact on my importance or otherwise.

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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#95  Postby z8000783 » Jul 07, 2012 2:39 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
z8000783 wrote:
How important you are is determined by other people. What does having a sense of self-importance do for you?
John

Plenty - it gives me a sense of mental solidity, conviction, confidence, self-assurance and the like.

All useful attributes for sure.

Indeed they are and certainly attributes I would love to possess.

Question is though is, how do you assess how important you are? If your method for doing this is to disregard other people’s views of how important you are to them, then you will end up deluding yourself.

John
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#96  Postby babel » Jul 08, 2012 5:10 pm

I've reread some of your reactions and this one seems to have thrown me off course:

I still have to admit the whole thing reminds me of hilariously obvious situations where people go around asking for opinions or advice for their 'friends'.
Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:ok, that's fair enough, so let's look at the personal situation I gave regarding the field of love.
Let's say one were always rejected by members of the opposite sex, even though we know ourselves to be of good character.

How would one be entitled to feel then?

Perhaps we had a deficiency that could not be altered, let's say a physical defect, weight problem or the like.

Would it really be realistic for us to assume the attitude of ' hey, I know I'm a good guy but am just not up to the mark, so live and let live, doesn't bother me'

let's face it - many people are seething with resentment and I'm sure this is one of the major ones - jilted lovers and all that!

Who is to say we are not good enough when often we are just judged by the artificially contrived mass of human consciousness?

When looking at the bigger picture, I think you are projecting your own opinion about this hypothetical situations and are dead wrong.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#97  Postby virphen » Jul 08, 2012 7:19 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Anyway that deity of yours do you have proof of its existance?

I have as much proof as you have of its non-existence.


I have as much proof that you promised to pay me $100,000 as you do that you didn't.

Want to split the difference? Cool, just send me $50,000, I'll let you off the rest.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#98  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 17, 2012 1:44 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:ok, that's fair enough, so let's look at the personal situation I gave regarding the field of love.

Let's say one were always rejected by members of the opposite sex, even though we know ourselves to be of good character.



Having now seen the horrible manner in which you conduct yourself - your demands to be given undue and unearned respect - your disdain for people different than you - your totally lack of empathy with those different to you - your antiquated notion of gender roles - and your willingness to engage in sophistry to cover up your poorly reasoned positions.... I'd say that these women were far more canny than you gave them credit for - yes, all of them.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#99  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 17, 2012 2:46 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
If one is continually rejected by other members of society, through no fault of his own

This seems to be the problematic assumption you're making here. In my experience, people don't find themselves in this position for no reason.

then he needs a mechanism to deal with it.

Blaming everyone else and re-affirming one's own perfection would be one way to do it. Not especially useful though.

for instance, if one suffers from mental or physical impairment then why do they deserve rejection?

Quite simply, they do not deserve it, yet that is how nature works,

And having a pity party helps how? In this world, you are owed nothing. You work with what you've got. I suggest stop going after girls who are out of your league.

though magnified by the capitalist culture of greed, hypocrisy and narcissism.

Am I to think you'd have a better chance at succeeding in a communistic culture? Or is this just more mindless lashing out to protect one's own ego?

Those suffering from this affliction need a defence mechanism - to protect the ego and overall state of mind.

Hence religion or the psychological mechanism as outlined in this thread (or a combination of both).

Except it isn't helping you reach your goals, is it? Mechanisms are just mechanisms, it's up to you to control them. Use them to your advantage, rather than being used by them.
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Re: Not good enough for me = not good enough for you!

#100  Postby BlackBart » Jul 18, 2012 1:30 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:ok, that's fair enough, so let's look at the personal situation I gave regarding the field of love.

Let's say one were always rejected by members of the opposite sex, even though we know ourselves to be of good character.



Having now seen the horrible manner in which you conduct yourself - your demands to be given undue and unearned respect - your disdain for people different than you - your totally lack of empathy with those different to you - your antiquated notion of gender roles - and your willingness to engage in sophistry to cover up your poorly reasoned positions.... I'd say that these women were far more canny than you gave them credit for - yes, all of them.


Bye, bye Kenny. The thrower of spears is correct. Try losing the bigoted fuckwit persona and one day you might...just might...finally get to do it with a lady! :thumbup:
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