On Idealism, repeated

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1441  Postby Spearthrower » May 09, 2022 2:47 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:You're going to have to kill them.


I think that's what all philosophers*, after a life-time of weighty consideration in pondering the nature of nature, have ultimately alighted on.

It would all work perfectly, if it wasn't for those arseholes.





* Including Prof. S. Coobydoo
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1442  Postby Greg the Grouper » May 09, 2022 8:18 pm

You laugh, but Scooby Doo was the greatest thinker of his time.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1443  Postby scott1328 » May 09, 2022 8:33 pm

If you think about it, in its orginal incarnation, the Scooby Doo cartoon was always about natural explanations. There was NEVER ghosts, or magic, or supernatural explanations to the mysterious. It (almost) always someone trying to commit fraud.

Shaggy and Scooby, always the most credulous of the gang, were portrayed as buffoons. But in Scooby's defense, he was a talking dog.

The "greatest thinker" honor goes to Velma.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1444  Postby Spearthrower » May 09, 2022 8:35 pm

Greg the Grouper wrote:You laugh, but Scooby Doo was the greatest thinker of his time.


Scrappy dappy doo!
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1445  Postby Spearthrower » May 09, 2022 8:35 pm

scott1328 wrote:The "greatest thinker" honor goes to Velma.



Well, she did have glasses, after all!
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1446  Postby Frozenworld » May 17, 2022 11:09 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Frozenworld wrote:
The only way to track that would be in the fantasy world you've made up where I said I believed it despite me repeatedly saying I don't want to believe it but I don't know how to argue against it. Anyone who reads this thread can see that except you apparently. You're not fooling anyone.

My problem is I don't have solid proof to say it's wrong and just get on with my life. If I did I wouldn't be here. But like any philosophy question there is no final answer to it.

So I'm left with just saying "it's nonsense" or "i don't believe it" which doesn't feel right because it doesn't sound very strong.

And there is the question of "What if you're wrong and this is all just in your head, an illusion"? I don't have a response to that one and it keeps me chained to this because I feel like I need an answer for it.

Just because this thread isn't years old doesn't mean the problem hasn't plagued me for years.


Yes, yes. I can see how much you're suffering. Witnessing the suffering of anonymous internet pests is one of the bright spots in my life. You could cut into that in a minute just by either getting on with your life, or killing yourself, but you're so nice. You can't bear to spoil my fun. There's two ways to fail at killing yourself: The first is that none of this is real, so you won't really kill yourself; the other is that this is real and you won't succeed, and just end up in the hospital with brain damage. It's not as if you actually believe you can fix your problems with the kind of brain-dead patter you keep pretending is philosophy. Those problems are centered around the thrill you get pretending you're confused. This is called "internet trolling".


Once again, farthest from the truth.

I didn't say I was a troll nor that I wanted to be one, but if I don't know if people are real or not then I don't know if they benefit from my kindness or not. It would be like helping a rock out. That and I can't really deal with the crushing loneliness if it is true. I mean...what would I do if I was wrong and it's all a lie? I have no plan and I don't know if I can cope with that reality. The fear of it all coming crashing down still lingers inside me and it's compounded by the fact that I can't say it's wrong, as much as I want to so badly. Nothing else is as emotionally defeating as realizing my life that I have lived so far was just a fantasy. I could deal with not winning the lottery by buying a ticket, heck I could even deal with dying tomorrow. But I can't deal with being in what is essentially a bubble, where only I exist and no matter how much I scream or cry or struggle it won't make everything around me real. That chills me to the core and still does. It's so bad it makes me wish I never came across this and never looked into it. I try to forget and tell myself it's nonsense but I'm always yoked back by the fear of lying to myself. I'm so scared of living a lie that I don't know what to do about it. I try to live day by day but it's hard because it infects everything I do to the point I have to drown it in video games or TV. Even typing this out I can feel myself drifting between recognizing you all as real or "pretending you are". It's been a large drain on my brain, I just truly wish I could forget about it. But even that feels like I would be lying to myself and choosing the bliss of ignorance
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1447  Postby sean_w » May 17, 2022 11:24 pm

lol, if we're all in your head your first kindness might have been to give us similarly trivial concerns; 'drowning in video games'...
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1448  Postby Greg the Grouper » May 18, 2022 12:17 am

Frozenworld wrote:...if I don't know if people are real or not then I don't know if they benefit from my kindness or not.


Either they exist, and you're helping them out, or they're a simulation concocted by you, and you're simulating helping them out. The context, action, and end result are exactly the same regardless.

It would be like helping a rock out.


There is no means, real or simulated, by which you can 'help a rock out'. The statement is meaningless, as rocks, imaginary or otherwise, face no problems, imaginary or otherwise, which you could potentially solve. This is in direct contrast to people, imaginary or otherwise, who have goals, imaginary or otherwise, and thus problems, imaginary or otherwise, which you could then solve.

That and I can't really deal with the crushing loneliness if it is true.


If you stopped worrying about this meaningless bullshit for a week and bothered to actually get to know somebody, you might just find that you genuinely enjoy their company regardless of whether or not any of this is real and that this problem which has definitely, totally afflicted you for so long is trivial, meaningless bullshit the likes of which a five year old would be embarrassed to fall for.

I mean...what would I do if I was wrong and it's all a lie?


At bare minimum, exactly what you do now: fucking nothing.

I have no plan and I don't know if I can cope with that reality. The fear of it all coming crashing down still lingers inside me and it's compounded by the fact that I can't say it's wrong, as much as I want to so badly.


If you bothered to actually engage with anything anyone in this thread has said to you, you might manage to make some progress, there.

Nothing else is as emotionally defeating as realizing my life that I have lived so far was just a fantasy.


Wait until you realize that you wasted your entire life doing nothing because you feared that doing anything would be fruitless!

I could deal with not winning the lottery by buying a ticket, heck I could even deal with dying tomorrow. But I can't deal with being in what is essentially a bubble, where only I exist and no matter how much I scream or cry or struggle it won't make everything around me real.


You literally interact with literally everything the exact same way regardless. It affects exactly nothing.

That chills me to the core and still does.


I dunno if I should call this privilege or not; all I know is that it'd be real nice to have this trivial bullshit be the thing that scares me.

It's so bad it makes me wish I never came across this and never looked into it.


Frozen, literally everyone here knows that you did barely any looking.

I try to forget and tell myself it's nonsense but I'm always yoked back by the fear of lying to myself. I'm so scared of living a lie that I don't know what to do about it. I try to live day by day but it's hard because it infects everything I do to the point I have to drown it in video games or TV.


Can you imagine someone retreating to unambiguously imaginary worlds to drown out the fear that they might be living in an imaginary world?

Even typing this out I can feel myself drifting between recognizing you all as real or "pretending you are". It's been a large drain on my brain, I just truly wish I could forget about it. But even that feels like I would be lying to myself and choosing the bliss of ignorance


Boring soap opera. Way too overplayed. 4/10
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1449  Postby Spearthrower » May 18, 2022 1:10 am

The drama is all so hilariously over-wrought compared to the substance of the position.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1450  Postby Spearthrower » May 18, 2022 2:27 am

Round 247 of 'I really feel like spending more of my time telling all you apparences how unconvinced I am of your existence'
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1451  Postby scott1328 » May 18, 2022 11:44 am

Frozenworld wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Frozenworld wrote:
The only way to track that would be in the fantasy world you've made up where I said I believed it despite me repeatedly saying I don't want to believe it but I don't know how to argue against it. Anyone who reads this thread can see that except you apparently. You're not fooling anyone.

My problem is I don't have solid proof to say it's wrong and just get on with my life. If I did I wouldn't be here. But like any philosophy question there is no final answer to it.

So I'm left with just saying "it's nonsense" or "i don't believe it" which doesn't feel right because it doesn't sound very strong.

And there is the question of "What if you're wrong and this is all just in your head, an illusion"? I don't have a response to that one and it keeps me chained to this because I feel like I need an answer for it.

Just because this thread isn't years old doesn't mean the problem hasn't plagued me for years.


Yes, yes. I can see how much you're suffering. Witnessing the suffering of anonymous internet pests is one of the bright spots in my life. You could cut into that in a minute just by either getting on with your life, or killing yourself, but you're so nice. You can't bear to spoil my fun. There's two ways to fail at killing yourself: The first is that none of this is real, so you won't really kill yourself; the other is that this is real and you won't succeed, and just end up in the hospital with brain damage. It's not as if you actually believe you can fix your problems with the kind of brain-dead patter you keep pretending is philosophy. Those problems are centered around the thrill you get pretending you're confused. This is called "internet trolling".


Once again, farthest from the truth.

I didn't say I was a troll nor that I wanted to be one, but if I don't know if people are real or not then I don't know if they benefit from my kindness or not. It would be like helping a rock out. That and I can't really deal with the crushing loneliness if it is true. I mean...what would I do if I was wrong and it's all a lie? I have no plan and I don't know if I can cope with that reality. The fear of it all coming crashing down still lingers inside me and it's compounded by the fact that I can't say it's wrong, as much as I want to so badly. Nothing else is as emotionally defeating as realizing my life that I have lived so far was just a fantasy. I could deal with not winning the lottery by buying a ticket, heck I could even deal with dying tomorrow. But I can't deal with being in what is essentially a bubble, where only I exist and no matter how much I scream or cry or struggle it won't make everything around me real. That chills me to the core and still does. It's so bad it makes me wish I never came across this and never looked into it. I try to forget and tell myself it's nonsense but I'm always yoked back by the fear of lying to myself. I'm so scared of living a lie that I don't know what to do about it. I try to live day by day but it's hard because it infects everything I do to the point I have to drown it in video games or TV. Even typing this out I can feel myself drifting between recognizing you all as real or "pretending you are". It's been a large drain on my brain, I just truly wish I could forget about it. But even that feels like I would be lying to myself and choosing the bliss of ignorance


Bullshit. this is so much disingenuous wankery. You do not for a moment believe the shit you post here. You've made up this character and are posting this non-sense in a mis-guided attempt at performance art. Go away. Or at least say something else.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1452  Postby Little Idiot » May 21, 2022 10:50 am

In response to
Frozenworld wrote:
Frozenworld wrote:
The only way to track that would be in the fantasy world you've made up where I said I believed it despite me repeatedly saying I don't want to believe it but I don't know how to argue against it. Anyone who reads this thread can see that except you apparently. You're not fooling anyone.

My problem is I don't have solid proof to say it's wrong and just get on with my life. If I did I wouldn't be here. But like any philosophy question there is no final answer to it.

So I'm left with just saying "it's nonsense" or "i don't believe it" which doesn't feel right because it doesn't sound very strong.

And there is the question of "What if you're wrong and this is all just in your head, an illusion"? I don't have a response to that one and it keeps me chained to this because I feel like I need an answer for it.

Just because this thread isn't years old doesn't mean the problem hasn't plagued me for years.



and




I didn't say I was a troll nor that I wanted to be one, but if I don't know if people are real or not then I don't know if they benefit from my kindness or not. It would be like helping a rock out. That and I can't really deal with the crushing loneliness if it is true. I mean...what would I do if I was wrong and it's all a lie? I have no plan and I don't know if I can cope with that reality. The fear of it all coming crashing down still lingers inside me and it's compounded by the fact that I can't say it's wrong, as much as I want to so badly. Nothing else is as emotionally defeating as realizing my life that I have lived so far was just a fantasy. I could deal with not winning the lottery by buying a ticket, heck I could even deal with dying tomorrow. But I can't deal with being in what is essentially a bubble, where only I exist and no matter how much I scream or cry or struggle it won't make everything around me real. That chills me to the core and still does. It's so bad it makes me wish I never came across this and never looked into it. I try to forget and tell myself it's nonsense but I'm always yoked back by the fear of lying to myself. I'm so scared of living a lie that I don't know what to do about it. I try to live day by day but it's hard because it infects everything I do to the point I have to drown it in video games or TV. Even typing this out I can feel myself drifting between recognizing you all as real or "pretending you are". It's been a large drain on my brain, I just truly wish I could forget about it. But even that feels like I would be lying to myself and choosing the bliss of ignorance


You are mistaken to say "So I'm left with just saying "it's nonsense" or "i don't believe it" which doesn't feel right because it doesn't sound very strong."
That is the core of the solution to your unsatisfactory situation, as you describe it. Basically, you say you don't want to believe it, but the inability to firmly dismiss it leaves you lost in a world of appearances which may not be real at all.
Hence you say "I feel like I need an answer for it".

Well here is the answer, plain simple and clear:
It literally makes no difference to you living your life if the fact of the matter is either
1) the apparently external environment is as it appears to be a material external causal reality populated by other sentient entities, as believed by the materialists.
Or 2) if you are the only 'real person' in a merely apparent environment which has no reality independent of your experience of it. In this case the 'causality' is merely apparent causality, very similar to causality in a video game or movie. The entities merely apparently independent of you. As believed by the solipsist(s).
Or 3) if the apparently external environment is a subjective mind-made bubble within a mind-made mental reality, as believed by the idealists.

Imagine if tomorrow clear indisputable evidence came up to show the world was indeed a hologram, or that we only ever experience an interface with reality not reality itself. What difference does it make to reality? NONE. Reality right now is what it is, all such a discovery changes is our understanding of reality, not reality itself, which is just the same before and after such a discovery.

Just so with solipsism, if I were to present to you clear indisputable evidence to show the world was indeed entirely all in your mind, what difference would it make to reality? None. Reality right now is what it is, all such discovery would change is your understanding of reality, not reality itself, which is just the same before and after such a discovery.

Hence, what difference does confirming such understanding to be 'true' make to you or us living our life in this reality, what ever it is? none.
How much difference to living our life does it make that it may be true? None!
Your life continues as it did, briefly, in any case. Don't fuck it up cos it will all be over soon enough.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1453  Postby romansh » Sep 12, 2022 4:36 pm

Apologies for resurrecting this thread.
I think Schopenhauer described solipsism admirably.
… a small frontier fortress. Admittedly the fortress is impregnable, but the garrison can never sally forth from it, therefore we can pass it by, and leave it in our rear without danger.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1454  Postby jamest » Sep 19, 2022 11:22 pm

romansh wrote:Apologies for resurrecting this thread.
I think Schopenhauer described solipsism admirably.
… a small frontier fortress. Admittedly the fortress is impregnable, but the garrison can never sally forth from it, therefore we can pass it by, and leave it in our rear without danger.

The greatest philosophical/logical absurdity of all time was to define solipsism and the 'self' in terms of the individual human being as 'the one' contemplating reality.

If the self is not merely assumed to be the mortal human-being it experiences itself as being, then there cannot be any perverted reaction such as yours comparing 'it' to a small fortress.

The greatest philosophical/logical correction of all time is upon us, in which only then can solipsism as a truth be judged by proper reason.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1455  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 20, 2022 4:34 am

I note you wrote words.

What a shame none of them had any prior relationship with each other.

In fact, you appear to have a stolen a bunch of words, stuffed them in your swag bag, then upended that bag into the above post.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1456  Postby romansh » Sep 20, 2022 5:25 pm

jamest wrote:
The greatest philosophical/logical absurdity of all time was to define solipsism and the 'self' in terms of the individual human being as 'the one' contemplating reality.

This is a bit like railing against the definition of a unicorn as an equine-like animal with a horn. You may disagree that unicorns exist, but that is the definition get over it and whilst you at get over yourself too.

jamest wrote:If the self is not merely assumed to be the mortal human-being it experiences itself as being, then there cannot be any perverted reaction such as yours comparing 'it' to a small fortress.

I think Schopenhauer's point was that solipsism cannot be disproved, but it was irrelevant to any philosophical discussion. We can debate whether Schopenhauer had a point or not. You seem to be saying if a human is 'more' than what it experiences then there cannot be be any perverted reactions. I must admit the logic does not flow for me. Plainly the perverted reaction just occurred, so your assumption does not appear valid.
jamest wrote:The greatest philosophical/logical correction of all time is upon us, in which only then can solipsism as a truth be judged by proper reason.

What?
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1457  Postby jamest » Sep 23, 2022 10:45 am

romansh wrote:
jamest wrote:
The greatest philosophical/logical absurdity of all time was to define solipsism and the 'self' in terms of the individual human being as 'the one' contemplating reality.

This is a bit like railing against the definition of a unicorn as an equine-like animal with a horn. You may disagree that unicorns exist, but that is the definition get over it and whilst you at get over yourself too.

You are wrong. A unicorn has definite referents (horses and horns) in its own definition, but from a philosophical perspective any referent to the 'self' as a human-being is obviously debatable, meaning that any definition of solipsism associated with being human is certainly questionable and open to revision.

jamest wrote:If the self is not merely assumed to be the mortal human-being it experiences itself as being, then there cannot be any perverted reaction such as yours comparing 'it' to a small fortress.

I think Schopenhauer's point was that solipsism cannot be disproved, but it was irrelevant to any philosophical discussion.

How could solipsism be irrelevant to philosophy if the 'self' is not a human being? That's a bit like saying that God is irrelevant to philosophy even if it exists. Essentially, you're just parroting a dumb mantra, which certainly has no relevance to philosophy.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1458  Postby romansh » Sep 23, 2022 7:00 pm

jamest wrote:You are wrong. A unicorn has definite referents (horses and horns) in its own definition, but from a philosophical perspective any referent to the 'self' as a human-being is obviously debatable, meaning that any definition of solipsism associated with being human is certainly questionable and open to revision.

I may well be wrong. But the interesting thing for me is, you are claiming in one breath, that horses and horns have definite definitions (forgive the tautology) and that one can't be sure of reality in the next.
jamest wrote:How could solipsism be irrelevant to philosophy if the 'self' is not a human being? That's a bit like saying that God is irrelevant to philosophy even if it exists. Essentially, you're just parroting a dumb mantra, which certainly has no relevance to philosophy.

Here you are forcing your definition of solipsism. Solipsism (for me) simply says we can't be sure of things 'beyond' one's perception. It makes no claim about the nature of one. Plus, you missed the bit where I wrote: We can debate whether Schopenhauer had a point or not.

If there is nothing beyond one's perception, then the whole thing is moot. If indeed one's perception is a reflection of reality, then solipsism again becomes moot, other than a degree of agnosticism might be in order, depending on how accurate one thinks their perception is.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1459  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 24, 2022 3:46 am

but from a philosophical perspective any referent to the 'self' as a human-being is obviously debatable


From that, let us call it 'tradition', of philosophy everything is debatable, even the most patently absurd things.

That's because there is Philosophy, the academic study conducted by trained people concerned with understanding aspects of nature and thinking, and there is 'philosophy' such as happens here where the participants attempt to impress upon strangers on the internet just how big their penis is.
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Re: On Idealism, repeated

#1460  Postby Greg the Grouper » Sep 24, 2022 11:38 am

My penis is the biggest, by the by. Massive. Ginormous, even.
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