Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#241  Postby Someone » Feb 18, 2011 3:54 am

Shrunk wrote:
Someone wrote:Oh, so we shouldn't restrict the speech of the unreasonable even though they may decide differently once they win? Is that very smart? And your reason for cutting my reservations out of the quote were?


Because I had no clue what that part of it meant. Just as I have no clue what you mean here, either.

I mean there is not a logical right answer to political questions. There are only projections of outcomes relative to what deciders decide relative to what deciders say is right or wrong, best or not best, good or bad for whomever or whatever they think matters and is true.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#242  Postby Shrunk » Feb 18, 2011 11:54 am

Someone wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
Someone wrote:Oh, so we shouldn't restrict the speech of the unreasonable even though they may decide differently once they win? Is that very smart? And your reason for cutting my reservations out of the quote were?


Because I had no clue what that part of it meant. Just as I have no clue what you mean here, either.

I mean there is not a logical right answer to political questions. There are only projections of outcomes relative to what deciders decide relative to what deciders say is right or wrong, best or not best, good or bad for whomever or whatever they think matters and is true.


Which I agree with. The problem I was having is that your posts seemed to be suggesting that this was an argument against freedom of expression, whereas I see it as one in favour. So maybe you could clarify that.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#243  Postby CarlPierce » Feb 18, 2011 12:25 pm

Dont see how this is workable.

Would you be guilty of denial if you claimed the nazis actually murdered 5 million rather than 6 million Jews.

What about 4,3,2,1 million, 500k, 200k, 100k, 50?

Maybe there could be a legal minimum figure say

5,805,321 so if you claim its less than that you get 1 day in prison for every 3181 less people. With a max of 5 years if you claim the number killed is zero.

What about saying the number is somewhere between 0 and 10 million does that count as denial?
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#244  Postby Federico » Feb 18, 2011 4:22 pm

Federico wrote:
The exact wording was: "Italy in 2007 voted into law a bill that imposed jail sentences for racially motivated crimes. It did not go so far as to ban Holocaust denial specifically, although that was the bill's initial objective."
Actually, even this law, although approved by both Chambers of Parliament, was never implemented.


Now this announcement, dated 24 Jan 2011

"The Council of Ministers unanimously approved the bill on the denial. This provides for penalties of up to three years for anyone to spread messages about racial superiority and imprisonment from 6 months to 4 years for anyone who commits acts of discrimination on racial, ethnic, religious, gender or sexual orientation ... Many historians, intellectuals and journalists to oppose the law, but in many European countries is already in force ... .. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz says the other hand, in an article titled "Italy adopted a law that turns denial into crime" "What was initially conceived against the deniers of the Holocaust, the law was extended to all forms of intolerance when some coalition members have expressed reservations about the appropriate use of the criminal code to honor the millions of Jews killed in the Holocaust. " (Translated by Google)

It took 4 years to the Italian members of the Council of Ministers in a Center-Right government to finally approve a law previously proposed by a Center-left Government. But they fudged the issue by deleting all reference to the Shoah.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#245  Postby Shrunk » Feb 18, 2011 4:41 pm

Federico wrote: Now this announcement, dated 24 Jan 2011

"The Council of Ministers unanimously approved the bill on the denial. This provides for penalties of up to three years for anyone to spread messages about racial superiority and imprisonment from 6 months to 4 years for anyone who commits acts of discrimination on racial, ethnic, religious, gender or sexual orientation ... Many historians, intellectuals and journalists to oppose the law, but in many European countries is already in force ... .. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz says the other hand, in an article titled "Italy adopted a law that turns denial into crime" "What was initially conceived against the deniers of the Holocaust, the law was extended to all forms of intolerance when some coalition members have expressed reservations about the appropriate use of the criminal code to honor the millions of Jews killed in the Holocaust. " (Translated by Google)

It took 4 years to the Italian members of the Council of Ministers in a Center-Right government to finally approve a law previously proposed by a Center-left Government. But they fudged the issue by deleting all reference to the Shoah.


It seems only fair that all ethnic groups, and not just Jews, should be protected by the legislation. However, based on this summary, it seems a pretty appalling law. It means, for instance, that someone could be put in the slammer for three years if they suggest that Jews are particularly gifted as musicians. I hope you're not in Italy, or planning on going there in the near future, Federico.
Last edited by Shrunk on Feb 18, 2011 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#246  Postby NineBerry » Feb 18, 2011 4:43 pm

No. Again, you don't have the text of the law. I am sure the law is very specific
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#247  Postby Someone » Feb 18, 2011 4:46 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Someone wrote:
Shrunk wrote:

Because I had no clue what that part of it meant. Just as I have no clue what you mean here, either.

I mean there is not a logical right answer to political questions. There are only projections of outcomes relative to what deciders decide relative to what deciders say is right or wrong, best or not best, good or bad for whomever or whatever they think matters and is true.


Which I agree with. The problem I was having is that your posts seemed to be suggesting that this was an argument against freedom of expression, whereas I see it as one in favour. So maybe you could clarify that.

Just read it again in that case. I'll give you a clue. I disagree on the question of faith in certain contexts. If you have life-threatening things that are immediate and a vague threat of something much worse that you believe in fighting against, you take the risk of your own death with faith that it doesn't matter.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#248  Postby Shrunk » Feb 18, 2011 4:58 pm

NineBerry wrote:No. Again, you don't have the text of the law. I am sure the law is very specific


I sure hope so. So long as that specificity is not along the lines of "Denial of the Shoah is specifically prohibited."
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#249  Postby Someone » Feb 18, 2011 6:10 pm

Do people here recognize this word?: 'Gook'.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#250  Postby DanDare » Feb 19, 2011 3:11 pm

What about 'Chink', 'Coon', 'Nigger', 'Kike','Towel Head','Boong','Pommie','Frog','Hebe','Retard','Mik' or 'Kraut'?

Your point?
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#251  Postby Federico » Feb 19, 2011 4:09 pm

Shrunk wrote:
It seems only fair that all ethnic groups, and not just Jews, should be protected by the legislation. However, based on this summary, it seems a pretty appalling law. It means, for instance, that someone could be put in the slammer for three years if they suggest that Jews are particularly gifted as musicians. I hope you're not in Italy, or planning on going there in the near future, Federico.


There you go again fudging the issue by advancing a Strawman's argument, as I'm sure you know perfectly well. In effect, the law will punish with up-to three years of jail anyone who makes comments about racial superiority and condemns to from 6 months to 4 years anyone who discriminates upon racial, ethnic, religious grounds, and gender or sexual preferences.

The new law is a cop-out, the result of a compromise between former Fascists and mouldy Communists, but it doesn't consider racist a remark about Jews being good musicians, as you seem to suggest.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#252  Postby Someone » Feb 19, 2011 6:36 pm

DanDare wrote:What about 'Chink', 'Coon', 'Nigger', 'Kike','Towel Head','Boong','Pommie','Frog','Hebe','Retard','Mik' or 'Kraut'?

Your point?

Sorry. Thought it understood. Don't know why. Lieutenant Calley recently spoke up, but not that recently. It was official policy to commit virtually unlimited mayhem in Vietnam. For some reason I thought it courageous to say so. Sort of silly. Back to reality. Anyway, I also kind of freaked out a little when I saw 248 replies and 1234 pageviews immediately afterward (Note also Hanoi was chosen the capital in 1010 and my biggest or 2nd biggest relatively simple (The other involves the primes 2003, 2011 and 2017; and I say 'relatively simple' in consideration of a complex of date-connected ones related through a manipulation surrounding raising 365.25 to the 4th power and using a specific calculator's numerical analysis defects, and also a complex connected through a manipulation involving an h2g2 A-number on an article on a star which has an alien-abduction story included in it) maths coincidence is probably the one involving 234 and discovered during the USA's 234th year).
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#253  Postby Shrunk » Feb 19, 2011 8:32 pm

Federico wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
It seems only fair that all ethnic groups, and not just Jews, should be protected by the legislation. However, based on this summary, it seems a pretty appalling law. It means, for instance, that someone could be put in the slammer for three years if they suggest that Jews are particularly gifted as musicians. I hope you're not in Italy, or planning on going there in the near future, Federico.


There you go again fudging the issue by advancing a Strawman's argument, as I'm sure you know perfectly well. In effect, the law will punish with up-to three years of jail anyone who makes comments about racial superiority and condemns to from 6 months to 4 years anyone who discriminates upon racial, ethnic, religious grounds, and gender or sexual preferences.

The new law is a cop-out, the result of a compromise between former Fascists and mouldy Communists, but it doesn't consider racist a remark about Jews being good musicians, as you seem to suggest.


Then perhaps you could quote the specific part of the legislation that says that. I'm just going by your translation of a news story about the legislation, and according to that (as you have helpfully repeated here, thank you very much) comments about racial superiority are punishable by three years in jail. Saying that Jews, as a race, are superior musicians, as you have claimed repeatedly in another thread, is obviously a "comment about racial superiority".
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#254  Postby Federico » Feb 19, 2011 9:11 pm

Shrunk wrote:Then perhaps you could quote the specific part of the legislation that says that. I'm just going by your translation of a news story about the legislation, and according to that (as you have helpfully repeated here, thank you very much) comments about racial superiority are punishable by three years in jail. Saying that Jews, as a race, are superior musicians, as you have claimed repeatedly in another thread, is obviously a "comment about racial superiority".


You are a lier, and I am going to report you and your lies to Mods.
You are maliciously twisting my comments in the thread about Jews being genetically different, where I mentioned the presence of many talented musicians and particularly violin players amongst them, but I have never used the expression that you accuse me of and which I have underlined.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#255  Postby Shrunk » Feb 19, 2011 9:26 pm

Federico wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Then perhaps you could quote the specific part of the legislation that says that. I'm just going by your translation of a news story about the legislation, and according to that (as you have helpfully repeated here, thank you very much) comments about racial superiority are punishable by three years in jail. Saying that Jews, as a race, are superior musicians, as you have claimed repeatedly in another thread, is obviously a "comment about racial superiority".


You are a lier, and I am going to report you and your lies to Mods.
You are maliciously twisting my comments in the thread about Jews being genetically different, where I mentioned the presence of many talented musicians and particularly violin players amongst them, but I have never used the expression that you accuse me of and which I have underlined.


To make the mods' job easier, I'll provide an example were you make exactly that claim:

Some ethnic groups (e.g., Italians, Jewish) probably have, for some evolutionary reason, acquired the genes for geniality in some fields, like music but only when the conditions are favorable (peace, rich patrons, etc) they can produce the works for which they are forever recognized. Other ethnic groups have not acquired such genes for music geniality, therefore even if they practice for generations they will never become a Verdi, or a Mendelssohn, or a Strauss, or a Yitzhak Pearlman, or a Paganini.
It takes both to be a genius: Genes and the right conditions.


http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post6 ... in#p695536

And another one, disparaging of the musical abilities of the Japanese:

The other example concerns Japanese and theirrecently developped passion for music and particularly violin music.
The Suzuki method has brought forth the high standard musician hidden in many japanese children who indeed became greatly esteemed professional violin players, but, as far as I know, not a single Paganini, yet. This, IMO, is due to the fact that they (probably) lack the gene necessary to become a musical genius.


http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post6 ... ml#p694862

To be clear, I have no problems with either of these posts (other than the fact that they are utter bullshit). The point is, according to your summary of the Italian law, these could be seen as amounting to claims regarding racial superiority.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#256  Postby james_gnz » Feb 20, 2011 1:48 am

logical bob wrote:I'm not here to say every Holocaust denier is more of a tube than every creationist.
Okay, cool. :grin:

logical bob wrote:I would suggest that Renouf's views may have less to do with her passionate belief in freedom of expression than with her belief that Judaism is a "repugnant and hate-filled religion" and that "anti-Semitism is caused by the anti-gentile nature of Judaism".
You could be right. All these views could be factors though (not that they should be, but people often aren't very logical). And although this might not win me any friends, I agree that Judaism is a repugnant and hate-filled religion (if we're talking about conservative/orthodox Judaism, and not to any greater extent than conservative/orthodox Christianity and Islam are, which possibly isn't exactly what Renouf meant--condemning people to be burnt alive while being eaten by maggots really is repugnant and hateful, IMHO), and I think it's entirely plausible that the racism in Judaism was a contributing factor in the development of anti-Semitism. In Mark 7:27 (Matthew 15:26), for example, Jesus is said to have referred to gentiles as dogs, suggesting second-class citizenship (which I think would fit with the 'chosen people' idea). Having adopted Christianity, and noticing this theme, it would presumably be unappealing to the Romans to be cast in this light (as anyone), perhaps motivating the development of the idea that the Jews fell from grace. Maybe. Not that this would justify anti-Semitism though (and again, I may be on a different wavelength from Renouf here).

For me, conservative/orthodox Judaism, Christianity and Islam seem pretty much on a par with anti-Semitism in terms of moral ugliness. There was an earthquake here in New Zealand not too long ago that cause a bit of damage, but fortunately with no loss of life. A local Christian leader wrote an article for a local paper drawing a comparison to the Asian Tsunami, saying things like 'Christchurch is blessed indeed', and 'we cannot suppose there will be no consequences for lack of faith' (can't remember the exact wording, but something along these lines). Essentially the gist (though delivered in indirect language) is that the Asians deserved to die. I found it all pretty sick, and I suspect this is someone I would find a more unpleasant dinner guest than Renouf (she seems not to be at this level, from what I've read).

logical bob wrote:No more so than Jews or gay people.
I'm not so sure. The Jewish people as a racial group (if they are even a distinct racial group at all) may well be pretty much indistinguishable from other Europeans on the basis of genetic characteristics. Judaism, though (at least of the conservative/orthodox kind) has requirements that make adherents conspicuous, and we can infer that the relatives of Jews are also Jews. For homosexuals, there is a choice to make between living a sexually unfulfilled life and risking discovery. I think, too, that at least some homosexual males may have mannerisms by which some people might nowadays identify them with some degree of success (although widespread recognition of such mannerisms may have come about in recent times). I don't think anything like this applies to atheists to the same extent, allowing them perhaps more chance of escaping persecution even in an equally hateful environment.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#257  Postby Shrunk » Feb 20, 2011 12:48 pm

james_gnz wrote: The Jewish people as a racial group (if they are even a distinct racial group at all) may well be pretty much indistinguishable from other Europeans on the basis of genetic characteristics.


Elena provided a study in another thread that suggests this may not be so:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post7 ... ml#p700075
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#258  Postby Federico » Feb 20, 2011 4:01 pm

Shrunk wrote:To be clear, I have no problems with either of these posts (other than the fact that they are utter bullshit). The point is, according to your summary of the Italian law, these could be seen as amounting to claims regarding racial superiority.


Very well, Shrunk, Mods will decide whether my remarks about Italian and Jewish ethnic groups having a large number of
talented violin players, while Japanese had fewer (probably due to the fact violin has only entered quite recently in their musical culture), is a racist remark or a simple statement of known facts. Perhaps, retrospectively, I should have added that Japanese have many virtuoso Shamisen players while the two other groups have none.
On the contrary, I consider a very offensive slur that you might even have raised that possibility; it's a nasty habit on your part of putting down and ridiculing your opponents.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#259  Postby Shrunk » Feb 20, 2011 6:17 pm

Federico wrote:
Shrunk wrote:To be clear, I have no problems with either of these posts (other than the fact that they are utter bullshit). The point is, according to your summary of the Italian law, these could be seen as amounting to claims regarding racial superiority.


Very well, Shrunk, Mods will decide whether my remarks about Italian and Jewish ethnic groups having a large number of
talented violin players, while Japanese had fewer (probably due to the fact violin has only entered quite recently in their musical culture), is a racist remark or a simple statement of known facts. Perhaps, retrospectively, I should have added that Japanese have many virtuoso Shamisen players while the two other groups have none.
On the contrary, I consider a very offensive slur that you might even have raised that possibility; it's a nasty habit on your part of putting down and ridiculing your opponents.


Once again, you are misunderstanding what is being discussed here.

I am not accusing you of making a racist remark.

We are discussing an Italian law, which, according to your translation of a news story, criminalizes public statements about racial superiority.

You seem to agree with this law. Your chief concern with the law, in fact, is that it is a watered down, compromised "cop out."

I disagree with this law, and see it as a violation of the principle of free speech which, in addition, threatens to criminalize statements that are not intended to be racist.

To support my position, I have made reference to certain of your own statements on this board that, while clearly not intended to be racist, could easily be classifed as such under the Italian law. My point, IOW, is that your own non-racist statments could be deemed illegal by the law which you are supporting.

Again, I am not accusing you of racism.

I hope that is clear now.
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Re: Should the Denial of the Shoah be Considered a Crime?

#260  Postby Someone » Feb 22, 2011 2:06 am

james_gnz: There are African Jews. The main thing is that humans hardly differ from each other across genetic groups. It's not absolute, but the overlap is just too great for most people to have a good biologically-based reason to consider races and ethnicities as different. Races are a mostly social construct
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