Can emotional trauma in childhood be a factor leading to skepticism in adulthood?
Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker
carl wrote:God was not taken by surprise by mankind's sinfulness nor is He without a plan to redeem the situation:
carl wrote:Nicko wrote:Regarding your first point, it is irrelevant that human beings are the immediate cause of some of the suffering that exists when you are positing the existence of a being who is the ultimate cause of everything. To say nothing of the massive amount of suffering that occurs without any human action and in the absence of any human ability to prevent or ameliorate it. If you want to point to human-caused suffering as a way out for your conception of God you need to:
a) Assert that God was for some reason unable to create a universe* that did not contain a massive amount of suffering, thereby denying His omnipotence.
b) Assert that God was unaware that the universe He was creating would contain a massive amount of suffering, thereby denying His omniscience.
c) Assert that God did not care that the universe He was creating would contain a massive amount of suffering, thereby denying His omnibenevolence.
d) Some combination of the preceeding.
In any event, for your objections to hold, you must reject the idea that God - if He exists** - is omnipotent, omnicient and omnibenevolent. At least one of those attributes has to go. Which is it, or would you like to just chuck all three?
A 'good' God is not discounted simply based on a 'bad' world:
carl wrote:1) After God created everything, His Creation was 'very good': "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." (Genesis 1).
carl wrote:2) That 'very good' Creation became tainted by mankind's sin:
carl wrote:3) Mankind's first case of murder: "Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him." (Genesis 4).
carl wrote:4) The earth became 'filled with violence': "Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6).
carl wrote:The above explains how a 'good God' created a 'very good' world which soon became filled with violence because of mankind's sinfulness.
carl wrote:God was not taken by surprise by mankind's sinfulness nor is He without a plan to redeem the situation:
carl wrote:In the meantime, we can show our genuineness of our concern for those suffering (like in third world nations) by establishing organizations and helping them. In some nations today, there is ONE DOCTOR for 100,000 people. Therefore, NONE of us should say there are 'plenty of charitable organizations out there'. No there aren't.
carl wrote:Now if we could just get atheists to group together to form just one relief organization....
carl wrote:
Now if we could just get atheists to group together to form just one relief organization....
carl wrote:
BTW, will those studies actually claiming to confirm the origin of the universe (as if !) contain the words: "possibly", "maybe", "we propose", "it seems likely", "could", "should", "might", "in all likelihood", "theorize", etc.. ?
We need to discern what is speculative and what is confirmative.
carl wrote: >snipped the preachy bollocks<
(Now if we could just get atheists to group together to form just one relief organization....
Denis Diderot wrote:Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
carl wrote:We need to discern what is speculative and what is confirmative.
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also carl, are you going to adress, at any point, your mistakes with regards to biblical knowledge?
carl wrote:Calilasseia wrote:carl wrote:Calilasseia wrote:Studied any actual cosmology, have you? Only some of us have spent time poring over the peer reviewed papers, and know that your above caricature is precisely that.
If you are claiming there are studies which somehow confirm the origin of the universe - without ANY SPECULATION involved - please let us know about this. That would be news to all of us.
Nice selective cherry-picking of my post there carl. Oh wait, what did I say immediately after the part you selectively quoted? Let me remind you (with relevant part highlighted in blue):What has actually happened in the world of cosmological physics, as anyone who has actually studied the subject properly will tell you, is that the theorists have been able to make advances that for the moment, take several of their ideas beyond the reach of the experimenters. But, those same theorists have started to search for ways and means of making their theories empirically testable, because they know that at bottom, this is the only means by which their theories stand a chance of being properly refuted or validated. Indeed, I've presented two papers by Steinhardt & Turok, in which they present an empirical test allowing their own ideas to be validated at some point in the future, and a considerable amount of diligent labour is being expended toward making that empirical test a reality.
And guess what, carl? Work is underway to conduct those very same empirical tests I covered in the blue highlighted part of my post above, the part you duplicitously snipped in order to peddle yet another strawman canard
Plus, as anyone who paid attention in science classes will tell you, speculation is an essential part of science. It's the means by which new ideas are formulated. But of course, there's the second essential part of science, namely finding ways of testing the products of said speculation, and performing the requisite tests, to determine if the data supports the requisite ideas. Which is where science differs from religion. Religion erects unsupported assertions, demands that said assertions be treated as fact, and treats any proper inquiry into the likely truth-value of those assertions as some sort of heinous offence. Science generates hypotheses, then tests those hypotheses to destruction, and the survivors of said test become the evidentially supported foundations of scientific theories.
Let's see how much of my above post you quote mine next time, shall we carl?
BTW, will those studies actually claiming to confirm the origin of the universe (as if !) contain the words: "possibly", "maybe", "we propose", "it seems likely", "could", "should", "might", "in all likelihood", "theorize", etc.. ?
We need to discern what is speculative and what is confirmative.
carl wrote:
A 'good' God is not discounted simply based on a 'bad' world:
1) After God created everything, His Creation was 'very good': "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." (Genesis 1).
2) That 'very good' Creation became tainted by mankind's sin: "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it; all the days of your life; It will produce thorns and thistles for you...and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3). Death and suffering are introduced by mankind's sin.
3) Mankind's first case of murder: "Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him." (Genesis 4).
4) The earth became 'filled with violence': "Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6).
The above explains how a 'good God' created a 'very good' world which soon became filled with violence because of mankind's sinfulness. This process of degradation continues today, via the sins and hurtful acts of modern humans (everybody today).
God was not taken by surprise by mankind's sinfulness nor is He without a plan to redeem the situation:
1) God sent His Son to redeem the world: "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man (Adam) was of the dust of the earth; the second man (Jesus) is of heaven.
2) When this redemption plan is fully set in the future, death itself will be abolished: "For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (1 Corinth. 15).
3) The present world will burn, right down to the elements: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare." (2 Peter 3)
4) God will remove all sadness when He creates a brand-new tragedy-free world: "Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed." (Rev. 21).
5) Now, about our impatience with this current world of suffering: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3)
The point made earlier is that God has not yet removed suffering in this world yet because:
1) Suffering in this world AND sin in this world are intertwined. To remove suffering is also to remove sin. Since removing sin means removing all of us sinful humans,
He has planned this NOT FOR TODAY but for the future. This is a sign of His patience and mercy on all of us today (a good thing!).
2) Natural disasters are a consequence of sin by Adam and Eve. Although we were not there at that time in the Garden of Eden, we suffer the consequences. Likewise, others suffer the consequences of our sins today (those around us including our families, for example).
3) We will have to wait for the 'new heaven and new earth' to see a natural disaster-free world - in the future. Our waiting is due to God's patience and mercy on us (like I said, a good thing).
4) Waiting in no way implies God is unable or unwilling to remove suffering if there is a reason: Patience and Mercy upon you and me. The above Bible verses, in no way, imply God is waiting for no reason or is just taking His time while He is relaxing. "Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." This is a show of God's goodness to us.
In the meantime, we can show our genuineness of our concern for those suffering (like in third world nations) by establishing organizations and helping them. In some nations today, there is ONE DOCTOR for 100,000 people. Therefore, NONE of us should say there are 'plenty of charitable organizations out there'. No there aren't.
Now if we could just get atheists to group together to form just one relief organization....
Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) (pronounced [medsɛ̃ sɑ̃ fʁɔ̃tjɛʁ] ( listen)), or Doctors Without Borders, is a French-founded (now international and federal) humanitarian-aid non-governmental organization and Nobel Peace Prize laureate, best known for its projects in war-torn regions and developing countries facing endemic diseases. Its headquarters are in Geneva, Switzerland.[1] The organization is known in most of the world by its localized name or simply as MSF; in Canada and the United States the name Doctors Without Borders is commonly used. In 2007 over 26,000, mostly local, doctors, nurses and other medical professionals, logistical experts, water and sanitation engineers and administrators provided medical aid in over 60 countries. These doctors and nurses decided to volunteer their time to solve issues of world health. Private donors provide about 80% of the organization's funding, while governmental and corporate donations provide the rest, giving MSF an annual budget of approximately US$400 million.[2]
Médecins Sans Frontières was created in 1971, in the aftermath of the Biafra secession, by a small group of French doctors and journalists who believed that all people have the right to medical care regardless of race, religion, creed or political affiliation, and that the needs of these people outweigh respect for national borders......continues
carl wrote:
A 'good' God is not discounted simply based on a 'bad' world:
1) After God created everything, His Creation was 'very good': "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." (Genesis 1).
2) That 'very good' Creation became tainted by mankind's sin: "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it; all the days of your life; It will produce thorns and thistles for you...and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3). Death and suffering are introduced by mankind's sin.
The above explains how a 'good God' created a 'very good' world which soon became filled with violence because of mankind's sinfulness. This process of degradation continues today, via the sins and hurtful acts of modern humans (everybody today).
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
carl wrote:God was not taken by surprise by mankind's sinfulness nor is He without a plan to redeem the situation:
1) God sent His Son to redeem the world: "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man (Adam) was of the dust of the earth; the second man (Jesus) is of heaven.
Nicko wrote:carl wrote:God was not taken by surprise by mankind's sinfulness nor is He without a plan to redeem the situation:
So He has a solution for the problem He created?
Cool. How's that working out?
The point, in case it escapes you, is that omnipotent beings don't need "a plan" to do anything. They want something done, it's done. That's what "omnipotent" means.
Regardless, your objection still doesn't address the issue of the vast amount of suffering not caused by human beings.
Thomas Eshuis wrote:carl wrote:
A 'good' God is not discounted simply based on a 'bad' world:
1) After God created everything, His Creation was 'very good': "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." (Genesis 1).
2) That 'very good' Creation became tainted by mankind's sin: "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it; all the days of your life; It will produce thorns and thistles for you...and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3). Death and suffering are introduced by mankind's sin.
The above explains how a 'good God' created a 'very good' world which soon became filled with violence because of mankind's sinfulness. This process of degradation continues today, via the sins and hurtful acts of modern humans (everybody today).
This is in direct contradiction to the OT:Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
People cannot be responsible fir ech others sins carl.
So how can infants be punished with illness, hardship and death?
carl wrote:Nicko wrote:carl wrote:God was not taken by surprise by mankind's sinfulness nor is He without a plan to redeem the situation:
So He has a solution for the problem He created?
Cool. How's that working out?
The point, in case it escapes you, is that omnipotent beings don't need "a plan" to do anything. They want something done, it's done. That's what "omnipotent" means.
Regardless, your objection still doesn't address the issue of the vast amount of suffering not caused by human beings.
1) Where in the Bible does it say God caused the Fall after His initial Creation? It doesn't. It says humans caused it and continue to perpetuate it today.
carl wrote:2) What cosmic law says God can't have a plan and have a certain timing for the unfolding of His plan?
carl wrote:Suffering, birth defects, disease, natural disasters, death, etc. were all brought into God's perfect Creation by Adam and Eve's original sin, which tainted God's original Creation which was initially 'very good'.
carl wrote:Genesis 1: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."
carl wrote:Furthermore, the place in which most of humanity errs is our belief that we can somehow make our personal wrongs right thru our good deeds. This is where the Bible is especially unique: We cannot 'pay' for our sins by our good deeds any more than a convict on death row who claims his past 'good deeds' should get him off death row. If a judge let a death-row convict go free because of his past good deeds, he would be a corrupt judge. God is not corrupt.
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