The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

Holistic view of human behavior

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The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#1  Postby TMB » Jun 08, 2014 10:14 am

I have been "challenged' by Cito de Pense to paint a picture of the human condition, this is something that arose from a discussion in a topic on men being part of a rape culture, and I criticised the author of original article and is limited vision of the topic and inability to see the bigger picture.

I will start by defining what I understand to be the objectives of what I will do, as if there is no concensus on what its about, we are unlikely to get agreement on subordinate details.

I believe that it is possible, in principle, to reduce all human behavior to a single factor, and those details are all ultimately subject to an underlying cause which can be reduced to a deeper level and ultimately to a single factor that is not dependent upon any subsequent effects. This means that I subscribe to the idea of hierarchial cause and effect stacks, and while that does not rule out cross-linking between subordinate effects, ultimately a single cause will bring into existence the entire causation stack.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#2  Postby Nicko » Jun 08, 2014 10:32 am

TMB wrote:I have been "challenged' by Cito de Pense to paint a picture of the human condition, this is something that arose from a discussion in a topic on men being part of a rape culture, and I criticised the author of original article and is limited vision of the topic and inability to see the bigger picture.

I will start by defining what I understand to be the objectives of what I will do, as if there is no concensus on what its about, we are unlikely to get agreement on subordinate details.

I believe that it is possible, in principle, to reduce all human behavior to a single factor, and those details are all ultimately subject to an underlying cause which can be reduced to a deeper level and ultimately to a single factor that is not dependent upon any subsequent effects. This means that I subscribe to the idea of hierarchial cause and effect stacks, and while that does not rule out cross-linking between subordinate effects, ultimately a single cause will bring into existence the entire causation stack.


Okay. Tell me what single factor you think all human behaviour can be reduced to and I'll try to explain how you're wrong.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#3  Postby Fallible » Jun 08, 2014 10:38 am

Can we place bets on what it will be?
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#4  Postby TMB » Jun 08, 2014 11:25 am

Nicko wrote:
TMB wrote:I have been "challenged' by Cito de Pense to paint a picture of the human condition, this is something that arose from a discussion in a topic on men being part of a rape culture, and I criticised the author of original article and is limited vision of the topic and inability to see the bigger picture.

I will start by defining what I understand to be the objectives of what I will do, as if there is no concensus on what its about, we are unlikely to get agreement on subordinate details.

I believe that it is possible, in principle, to reduce all human behavior to a single factor, and those details are all ultimately subject to an underlying cause which can be reduced to a deeper level and ultimately to a single factor that is not dependent upon any subsequent effects. This means that I subscribe to the idea of hierarchial cause and effect stacks, and while that does not rule out cross-linking between subordinate effects, ultimately a single cause will bring into existence the entire causation stack.


Okay. Tell me what single factor you think all human behaviour can be reduced to and I'll try to explain how you're wrong.


Not until you agree that the parameters I have proposed offer a valid mechanism to discuss this. I am not going to get a discussion derailed part way along because you have not reviewed the approach I am suggesting.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#5  Postby TMB » Jun 08, 2014 11:27 am

Fallible wrote:Can we place bets on what it will be?

You sure can, just as I can place bets that you usually post obtuse comments like this one. If you think you can predict the basic principle then why not come right out with it?
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#6  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jun 08, 2014 11:39 am

Fallible wrote:Can we place bets on what it will be?

Whatever it turns out to be, it will undoubtedly be the final answer to life, the universe, and everything.

Oh.. wait.. isn't that 42? :ask:
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#7  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 08, 2014 11:46 am

Is it the Big Bang? If so, then I agree. Never mind what caused the big bang, we can't go that far back (yet).
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#8  Postby Thommo » Jun 08, 2014 11:48 am

I'm not even sure what you mean by "a single factor". I'd guess that my car is a lot simpler than "all human behaviour", but if someone said they could reduce car performance to a single factor I'd be inclined to disbelieve them - numerous principles are at play from friction, to combustion to aerodynamics.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#9  Postby Shrunk » Jun 08, 2014 11:49 am

Boy, we're off to a great start. :roll:

Just out with it, already, TMB. If you truly are in possession of this vitally earth-shattering piece of insight, it should stand on its own without all the preliminary prevarication.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#10  Postby kennyc » Jun 08, 2014 11:52 am

A picture of the human condition? Reduce all human behavior to a 'single factor?'

This should be good. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Go.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#11  Postby TMB » Jun 08, 2014 12:07 pm

Shrunk wrote:Boy, we're off to a great start. :roll:

Just out with it, already, TMB. If you truly are in possession of this vitally earth-shattering piece of insight, it should stand on its own without all the preliminary prevarication.


I do not imagine it is rocket science at all, but I want to get the people discussing this to put some skin in the game. My approach is essential reductionism, on the basis that physics underlies chemistry and chemistry underlies biology. If people are at odds with that approach then it will not matter what specifics I offer on human behavior if they do not agree with the approach I am taking. The problems that arise with so many of the debates on these forums is the initial overlooking of the approach people take to argue their point and it usually results in constantly going back and reviewing base assumptions. I would like to talk about the approach I am suggesting before I get into detail.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#12  Postby kennyc » Jun 08, 2014 12:10 pm

Nor does it matter if others agree or disagree with your prenuptials....

If you got something, let's hear it. Why the fuck start a thread otherwise.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#13  Postby Fallible » Jun 08, 2014 12:15 pm

TMB wrote:
Fallible wrote:Can we place bets on what it will be?

You sure can, just as I can place bets that you usually post obtuse comments like this one. If you think you can predict the basic principle then why not come right out with it?


Because it's not worth the effort. Gratuitous and unnecessarily personal lie noted.
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#14  Postby Shrunk » Jun 08, 2014 12:15 pm

TMB wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Boy, we're off to a great start. :roll:

Just out with it, already, TMB. If you truly are in possession of this vitally earth-shattering piece of insight, it should stand on its own without all the preliminary prevarication.


I do not imagine it is rocket science at all, but I want to get the people discussing this to put some skin in the game. My approach is essential reductionism, on the basis that physics underlies chemistry and chemistry underlies biology. If people are at odds with that approach then it will not matter what specifics I offer on human behavior if they do not agree with the approach I am taking. The problems that arise with so many of the debates on these forums is the initial overlooking of the approach people take to argue their point and it usually results in constantly going back and reviewing base assumptions. I would like to talk about the approach I am suggesting before I get into detail.


Well, the basic assumptions of a claim are kind of important, aren't they?

Anyway, if you're concerned about the topic being derailed by a bunch of extraneous details, you've certainly chosen an odd way of avoiding that....
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#15  Postby Nicko » Jun 08, 2014 12:39 pm

TMB wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Boy, we're off to a great start. :roll:

Just out with it, already, TMB. If you truly are in possession of this vitally earth-shattering piece of insight, it should stand on its own without all the preliminary prevarication.


I do not imagine it is rocket science at all, but I want to get the people discussing this to put some skin in the game. My approach is essential reductionism, on the basis that physics underlies chemistry and chemistry underlies biology. If people are at odds with that approach then it will not matter what specifics I offer on human behavior if they do not agree with the approach I am taking. The problems that arise with so many of the debates on these forums is the initial overlooking of the approach people take to argue their point and it usually results in constantly going back and reviewing base assumptions. I would like to talk about the approach I am suggesting before I get into detail.


I think I get what you are saying. But it kind of leads to an assertion that physics underlies everything which - whilst true in a certain sense - is fairly meaningless. If you can't use physics to predict biological ... stuff, then it really makes no sense to assert that physics can explain biology. Trying to extend that to human behaviour strikes me as even more ... senseless?

Is that what you are saying? That everything just reduces to physics?
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#16  Postby kennyc » Jun 08, 2014 12:45 pm

Yeah, like Keep it Real said.....it all started with the big bang....a single factor.....shrug.....
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#17  Postby tuco » Jun 08, 2014 12:52 pm

To paint a picture of the human condition .. do you mean the so-called human nature?
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#18  Postby Thommo » Jun 08, 2014 1:17 pm

Can a three body problem in physics be described as "just one factor"?
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#19  Postby Agrippina » Jun 08, 2014 1:59 pm

:coffee:
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Re: The human condition - is a holistic view possible?

#20  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 08, 2014 2:05 pm

TMB wrote:My approach is essential reductionism, on the basis that physics underlies chemistry and chemistry underlies biology. If people are at odds with that approach then it will not matter what specifics I offer on human behavior if they do not agree with the approach I am taking.

Nobody seems to be at odds with that approach; I'm certainly not. Come on robotochan, lay your cards on the table!
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