The Magnificence of Nazism

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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#21  Postby Animavore » May 01, 2012 12:19 pm

John P. M. wrote:I can only say that I personally wouldn't be able to harm others with the sole intent of enriching or empowering myself. I simply wouldn't be able to live with myself. I feel terrible as it is at the slightest inconvenience or harm to others caused by me. I guess that puts me in the 'saint' box.


I would fall into this category myself. Before I had my recent-ish, scary epiphany that morals may in fact be bullshit I would've thought myself more moral for being this way. It's what many religious people do, convince themselves that their impotence is virtue. But this is just so human. In our biography we weave we often come out in the best light and our reasonings the most just. I now wonder am I just some beta male schmuck who simply doesn't have the balls to take want I want out of life and living by the grace of those that do. That's if I could even figure out what I wanted first.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#22  Postby devogue » May 01, 2012 12:21 pm

CookieJon wrote:
devogue wrote:
CookieJon wrote:Why shouldn't we strive for mediocrity? Explain.


Striving for mediocrity is like kicking a duvet in to position.


And one shouldn't do that because...?


Dreams will fuck it up.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#23  Postby Regina » May 01, 2012 12:26 pm

Animavore wrote:
John P. M. wrote:I can only say that I personally wouldn't be able to harm others with the sole intent of enriching or empowering myself. I simply wouldn't be able to live with myself. I feel terrible as it is at the slightest inconvenience or harm to others caused by me. I guess that puts me in the 'saint' box.


I would fall into this category myself. Before I had my recent-ish, scary epiphany that morals may in fact be bullshit I would've thought myself more moral for being this way. It's what many religious people do, convince themselves that their impotence is virtue. But this is just so human. In our biography we weave we often come out in the best light and our reasonings the most just. I now wonder am I just some beta male schmuck who simply doesn't have the balls to take want I want out of life and living by the grace of those that do. That's if I could even figure out what I wanted first.

Don't worry, Hitler himself was beta male at best:
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They don't turn the other cheek the way they done before.

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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#24  Postby Animavore » May 01, 2012 12:28 pm

Translation.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#25  Postby Regina » May 01, 2012 12:33 pm

It's a photomontage by John Heartfield, don't let the name confuse you, it was his alias and he was German.
This montage was published about four months before Hitler came to power.

Translation:
What the Hitler greeting really means:

Millions are behind me.

Little man is asking for big gifts.
No, they ain't makin' Jews like Jesus anymore,
They don't turn the other cheek the way they done before.

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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#26  Postby Regina » May 01, 2012 12:40 pm

Something else: this was designed for the cover of AIZ, which had a pretty high circulation at the time.
Heartfield was at the top of the list of the enemies of the regime after they'd come to power. He barely managed to escape to Prague (bad idea) and later to England.
Must have had to do with the fact that his stuff was somewhat detrimental to Hitler's magnificence.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#27  Postby Animavore » May 01, 2012 12:43 pm

At least Hitler had a montage.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9Uwhjlog8[/youtube]

:sigh: Someday.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#28  Postby John P. M. » May 01, 2012 12:46 pm

It is of course as always difficult to talk of what one would do in a certain situation, and to talk of morals. I say that I would try my best not to hurt/harm others, but perhaps Hitler felt the same way - perhaps he felt that his actions were terrible, but necessary, like the idiot we have here in Norway now (Breivik) says he feels about his actions.

Could I become a mass murderer if I thought it would be for the greater good? Actually, I don't think so. A child of a different zeitgeist, I suppose. For instance, could it be said that the world would become a better place if one got rid of all the religious extremists on all sides? It seems to be the case. But would I support killing them all? It seems I wouldn't, when I think about it. I would much rather try to slowly create a better world through reasoned discourse. Suffering would ensue either way, but I think the root of the problem could be dealt with more effectively and lastingly my way. Perhaps terribly naive.

But I don't believe in forcing my views on the world - that's what's gotten us into a lot of messes before. Thankfully, it seems like the world is slowly but steadily progressing towards a thought that suffering matters, that human rights matter. It's a bumpy ride though, but we may be getting there without too many armed revolutions.

As for living life to its full capacity so to speak, some of us can do it for a while, but I doubt too many could have it as a life style. Although I suppose it depends what one considers to be living life to the fullest. If it's traveling and playing hard and having fun and experiencing the world, it will probably only last a few years, then you find a mate, you get kids and you need to take care of them and provide a solid platform. Because those things are an important part of life too. You get a job and a house and you're locked to one place again. You don't have to, but I think most people end up doing that. If all of us quit our jobs and decided to experience the world, I'm not sure it would be sustainable.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#29  Postby John P. M. » May 01, 2012 12:52 pm

-But there, you see - I've just relegated responsibility of armed revolution to other people. Those living 'over there', where I don't have to take part or see it. Sometimes I guess violence and at least loud opposition is necessary, because the people who take what they want don't listen to anything else. So again - - very difficult, this. :think:
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#30  Postby Animavore » May 01, 2012 1:00 pm

I wouldn't have minded being around for the 1916 rising. I often wonder if meaningful war is something missing from my life. Can't get behind any of the wars we in the West fight now.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#31  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » May 01, 2012 2:52 pm

devogue wrote:The Magnificence of Nazism


Bored Dev? :ask:
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#32  Postby devogue » May 07, 2012 10:32 am

John P. M. wrote:It is of course as always difficult to talk of what one would do in a certain situation, and to talk of morals. I say that I would try my best not to hurt/harm others, but perhaps Hitler felt the same way - perhaps he felt that his actions were terrible, but necessary, like the idiot we have here in Norway now (Breivik) says he feels about his actions.

Could I become a mass murderer if I thought it would be for the greater good? Actually, I don't think so. A child of a different zeitgeist, I suppose. For instance, could it be said that the world would become a better place if one got rid of all the religious extremists on all sides? It seems to be the case. But would I support killing them all? It seems I wouldn't, when I think about it. I would much rather try to slowly create a better world through reasoned discourse. Suffering would ensue either way, but I think the root of the problem could be dealt with more effectively and lastingly my way. Perhaps terribly naive.

But I don't believe in forcing my views on the world - that's what's gotten us into a lot of messes before. Thankfully, it seems like the world is slowly but steadily progressing towards a thought that suffering matters, that human rights matter. It's a bumpy ride though, but we may be getting there without too many armed revolutions.

As for living life to its full capacity so to speak, some of us can do it for a while, but I doubt too many could have it as a life style. Although I suppose it depends what one considers to be living life to the fullest. If it's traveling and playing hard and having fun and experiencing the world, it will probably only last a few years, then you find a mate, you get kids and you need to take care of them and provide a solid platform. Because those things are an important part of life too. You get a job and a house and you're locked to one place again. You don't have to, but I think most people end up doing that. If all of us quit our jobs and decided to experience the world, I'm not sure it would be sustainable.


Another thought provoking post.

I remember the music commentator Paul Gambaccini observing that Freddie Mercury singing live had the potential to use his awesome charisma for nefarious purposes, that if he wanted to, he could use his extraordinary power over audiences for something a lot more sinister than a sing-along. I'm not so sure, but it made me think about Hitler v Mercury - lives of extraordinary drama, power and, ultimately, self-realisation against all the odds (the wastrel from Braunau am Inn and the immigrant from Zanzibar), twisting the impossible in to the possible by sheer force of personality. One life was lived "evilly", the other "goodly", but when they drew their last breath what, in essence, was the difference?

I think what I'm trying to do here is pick the scab of nihilism, purposelessness and ultimate oblivion.

If you sing a song that millions love, or if you kill the same millions, what difference does it make?
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#33  Postby CookieJon » May 07, 2012 10:58 am

devogue wrote:If you sing a song that millions love, or if you kill the same millions, what difference does it
make?

That all sounds very deep, but if I give you a "Best of Queen" cd, or if I send you off to die a horrible death in a gas chamber, what difference does it make to you?

Now multiply by a million.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#34  Postby Animavore » May 07, 2012 11:08 am

I guess it depends how much you care what others think of you. I'd rather be loved and adored than hated and reviled. I can't stand the idea of anyone not liking me. When I hear of people not liking me I have to find out why that person doesn't like me and make them like me whether they like it or not.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#35  Postby devogue » May 07, 2012 11:11 am

CookieJon wrote:
devogue wrote:If you sing a song that millions love, or if you kill the same millions, what difference does it
make?

That all sounds very deep, but if I give you a "Best of Queen" cd, or if I send you off to die a horrible death in a gas chamber, what difference does it make to you?

Now multiply by a million.


The point is that Adolf Hitler and Freddie Mercury, for wildly different reasons, led lives of incredible colour and drama.

I'm removing the people affected by their respective actions from the picture for a moment and looking only at the monumental individual success of their lives in different fields.

I know that might sound distasteful, but I want to get to the crux of the matter - was Adolf Hitler's life (while it existed) and his experiences better, more fulfilling, more worthwhile, than that of nice normal people like you and me?
It's PETUNIAS TIME again, folks!!!

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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#36  Postby Animavore » May 07, 2012 11:12 am

devogue wrote:
CookieJon wrote:
devogue wrote:If you sing a song that millions love, or if you kill the same millions, what difference does it
make?

That all sounds very deep, but if I give you a "Best of Queen" cd, or if I send you off to die a horrible death in a gas chamber, what difference does it make to you?

Now multiply by a million.


The point is that Adolf Hitler and Freddie Mercury, for wildly different reasons, led lives of incredible colour and drama.

I'm removing the people affected by their respective actions from the picture for a moment and looking only at the monumental individual success of their lives in different fields.

I know that might sound distasteful, but I want to get to the crux of the matter - was Adolf Hitler's life (while it existed) and his experiences better, more fulfilling, more worthwhile, than that of nice normal people like you and me?


Yes.

:sigh:
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#37  Postby CookieJon » May 07, 2012 11:19 am

devogue wrote:
CookieJon wrote:
devogue wrote:If you sing a song that millions love, or if you kill the same millions, what difference does it
make?

That all sounds very deep, but if I give you a "Best of Queen" cd, or if I send you off to die a horrible death in a gas chamber, what difference does it make to you?

Now multiply by a million.


The point is that Adolf Hitler and Freddie Mercury, for wildly different reasons, led lives of incredible colour and drama.

I'm removing the people affected by their respective actions from the picture for a moment and looking only at the monumental individual success of their lives in different fields.

I know that might sound distasteful, but I want to get to the crux of the matter - was Adolf Hitler's life (while it existed) and his experiences better, more fulfilling, more worthwhile, than that of nice normal people like you and me?

I wasn't commenting on any matter of taste, but let's see...

Better? Not necessarily. I can't think of much I'd like to do less than spend my limited time than administering an enormous war and genocide, living in a state of paranoia to be backed literally into a ditch at the final moments with no other option but to kill myself. But that's just me.

More fulfilling? See above.

More worthwhile? Well, for the reasons above, but mostly since he failed utterly, I think that'd come under "not worthwhile".
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#38  Postby campermon » May 07, 2012 11:20 am

devogue wrote:
CookieJon wrote:
devogue wrote:If you sing a song that millions love, or if you kill the same millions, what difference does it
make?

That all sounds very deep, but if I give you a "Best of Queen" cd, or if I send you off to die a horrible death in a gas chamber, what difference does it make to you?

Now multiply by a million.


The point is that Adolf Hitler and Freddie Mercury, for wildly different reasons, led lives of incredible colour and drama.

I'm removing the people affected by their respective actions from the picture for a moment and looking only at the monumental individual success of their lives in different fields.

I know that might sound distasteful, but I want to get to the crux of the matter - was Adolf Hitler's life (while it existed) and his experiences better, more fulfilling, more worthwhile, than that of nice normal people like you and me?


i don't think that we can remove those affected when considering the question of how worthwhile a life has been.

Perhaps we can assign some sort of objective measure? Perhaps the amount of suffering someone has introduced to the world during their lifetime?
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#39  Postby devogue » May 07, 2012 11:36 am

campermon wrote:
devogue wrote:
CookieJon wrote:
devogue wrote:If you sing a song that millions love, or if you kill the same millions, what difference does it
make?

That all sounds very deep, but if I give you a "Best of Queen" cd, or if I send you off to die a horrible death in a gas chamber, what difference does it make to you?

Now multiply by a million.


The point is that Adolf Hitler and Freddie Mercury, for wildly different reasons, led lives of incredible colour and drama.

I'm removing the people affected by their respective actions from the picture for a moment and looking only at the monumental individual success of their lives in different fields.

I know that might sound distasteful, but I want to get to the crux of the matter - was Adolf Hitler's life (while it existed) and his experiences better, more fulfilling, more worthwhile, than that of nice normal people like you and me?


i don't think that we can remove those affected when considering the question of how worthwhile a life has been.

Perhaps we can assign some sort of objective measure? Perhaps the amount of suffering someone has introduced to the world during their lifetime?


I still think you are missing the point. Hitler didn't care a hoot about individual or collective suffering - he got his kicks, right up until the deluded end. Morality and ethics aren't the point - it's the richness of the human experience.

He rose from being a homeless vagrant to being the unquestioned ruler of practically the whole of fucking Europe - he conquered, destroyed, and was destroyed during a life of unimaginable consequence and drama.

In the smallness of the pale blue dot, he looms largest.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#40  Postby Animavore » May 07, 2012 11:40 am

How many women did he bone?
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