The Magnificence of Nazism

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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#61  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Jun 15, 2012 1:32 pm

Hitler was also wrecked by pain for a large part of his life due to a whole slew of diseases.

I think that most people who hunger for glory and power like him just go through their entire lives scared out of their minds for their fellow human beings and scared for the inevitable losses.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#62  Postby Achachay » Jun 15, 2012 1:39 pm

Hitler was a singularity that deserves to be forgotten.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#63  Postby devogue » Jun 15, 2012 2:02 pm

Achachay wrote:Hitler was a singularity that deserves to be forgotten.


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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#64  Postby Kazaman » Jun 15, 2012 2:29 pm

devogue wrote:
Kazaman wrote:Is this about the "magnificence of Nazism" or is it more like "Hitler was so badass, man, but not that I'd do that shit"?


The thread title is provocative - perhaps inverted commas around the word magnificence would have been a good idea.

Hitler was a cunt, but the effect of his existence on human history was "magnificent" in a terrible way, just as Genghis Khan and other despots had a gigantic, incredible impact.


I don't think infamy is such a magnificent thing, and the impacts of such figures would have been better not felt.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#65  Postby Hermit » Jun 15, 2012 2:57 pm

devogue wrote:a) We all are islands with one life

b) When we die it is over

c) It is therefore best to create as big a fuss and ripple as possible

d) Some will be "good". Some will be "evil"

e) But we all die and cease to exist

f) Therefore create as MUCH "good" or as MUCH "evil" as possible

To begin with, while we are born alone and die alone, nobody is an island while alive. Secondly, the occurrences of "therefore" are even more idiotic. Jabberwacky couldn't come up with worse word salad in an attempt to simulate something that has the superficial appearance of an intelligible proposition.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#66  Postby Ironclad » Jun 16, 2012 4:04 am

If your 'therefore' = create much evil, then you must be destroyed, and quickly.

Also; most will be dull, some will be good, few will be evil, the unique will be epic.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#67  Postby laklak » Jun 16, 2012 4:21 am

Well, they had the best tailors.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#68  Postby mindhack » Jun 16, 2012 6:25 am

devogue wrote:

The point of this thread is:

a) We all are islands with one life

The opposite imo, we're products of everything around.

b) When we die it is over

so?
c) It is therefore best to create as big a fuss and ripple as possible

Why?
d) Some will be "good". Some will be "evil"

uh?
e) But we all die and cease to exist

and must pay taxes in between
f) Therefore create as MUCH "good" or as MUCH "evil" as possible

Is it? I think life is more like "fulfill biological needs, reduce anxiety, address frustration...you know...stay happy".
g) Push yourself to your limit before non-existence.

This sounds overly insecure to me somehow.
h) Hitler's existence was infinitely more exciting and historic ("worthwhile") than almost all the billions of humans who have ever lived.

Hitler's existence was exciting & worthwhile? Well, I for one don't admire his existence by a long shot. Far too much frustration and bigotry for my liking. Imagine yourself hating everything and losing a world war while doing so.
i) Hitler may have enjoyed the most exhilarating and rewarding existence in the history of the universe.

Rewarding? I think he had some very severe issues you shouldn't admire. I think all his infamy was the result of personal failure and feelings from abuse and what not. I can imagine it would take quite a shitty life (or interpretation of it) to end up as frustrated as Hitler was, to feel motivated to become a national hater of everything.

All of this is extremely disconcerting.

Why, I think healthy people generally don't ask for too much in life and are happy with small mundane things like family and friends.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#69  Postby Achachay » Jun 16, 2012 2:17 pm

"Healthy people" accept their turn at the chores of leadership and do not crave it. Desire unleashed is dangerous and gets us into all kinds of trouble. Hitler was led by unlimited desire. Look where that got millions of his victims! Look where that got him! Well, King Ozymandias and all that. There's been no improvement on that story since Shelley.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#70  Postby amkerman » Jun 16, 2012 5:17 pm

devogue wrote:Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Heydrich...

The list of infamy goes on.

And it is infamy (if not evil, but that's another question).

The point of this thread is:

a) We all are islands with one life

K

b) When we die it is over

K

c) It is therefore best to create as big a fuss and ripple as possible

Why? This does not follow from a) and b).

d) Some will be "good". Some will be "evil"

What is "good" and what is "evil"? And why did you put those words in quotations?

e) But we all die and cease to exist

K

f) Therefore create as MUCH "good" or as MUCH "evil" as possible

Again, why?

g) Push yourself to your limit before non-existence.

Why?

h) Hitler's existence was infinitely more exciting and historic ("worthwhile") than almost all the billions of humans who have ever lived.

I think this statement can just stand on it's own. It is an opinion; and although it clearly isn't supported by your other statements it Is arguable. Your definition of "worthwhile" is uncommon.

i) Hitler may have enjoyed the most exhilarating and rewarding existence in the history of the universe.

Hmmm. I guess that's a possibility. Everyone just dies in the end and that's it so I don't really think any life should be considered more or less rewarding than any other. Seems to me that every life is not worthwhile, but that they all are worthless. "Good" and "evil" are just social constructions, they don't actually exist. There is no such thing as "being good" in the absence of something with an ability to conceive of "good". I don't see how it could be "best" to do anything in an objective sense, although each individual may have a notion of what is "best". Such beliefs, however, are irrational without positing an absolute consciousness. It's the same as actually believing "yellow is the best color"... No. It's just a color, it is not better or worse than any other color.




All of this is extremely disconcerting.

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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#71  Postby Neceseco » Jun 16, 2012 5:23 pm

I see your point and it's acceptable, but I really think it doesn't suit with nazism. I would say it is good for people as Napoleon or Nero or others in history but definely not Hitler, which had a terrible life, refused by anyone and constantly repressed. You can see by his behavior, his movements and his arguments how weak and insecure he was. Because of that I do agree with your point but I strongly believe that a common man who accepts himself has a life way better than Hitler's one.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#72  Postby Beatsong » Jun 16, 2012 7:42 pm

I see mindhack and amkerman have got there first, but basically your OP makes no sense.

The point of this thread is:

a) We all are islands with one life


This is completely untrue. It's a wierd quasi-psychology cliche born of spoilt indulgent westerners who forget the actual Earth and blood and bone that they were born from. "Islands", eh? Try this: take a newborn, one-minute-old human "island" and leave it in the middle of nowhere to fend for itself. See how long it lasts. Take that as the norm, and you can see very well where the human race would be now living as "islands".

b) When we die it is over


Not really true. I don't believe in an afterlife or anything, but our lives have so much effect upon those around us, that there's no way you could say all of that effect is "over" when we die.

c) It is therefore best to create as big a fuss and ripple as possible


Why? This is a non sequiteur even if we accept (a) and (b) (which I don't).

d) Some will be "good". Some will be "evil"


Actually all will be a mixture of both, and even that depends on how you define such nebulous terms. I'd also note that for all our black-and-white unanimity on the subject, Hitler clearly THOUGHT that was he was doing was extremely moral; and so did many of his countrymen. Just because we judge him as having lived the kind of "magnificent" amorality you decribe doesn't mean he did. He simply lived a different morality, one most of us reject.

e) But we all die and cease to exist


OK

f) Therefore create as MUCH "good" or as MUCH "evil" as possible


Why? Another non sequiteur.

g) Push yourself to your limit before non-existence.


And another.

h) Hitler's existence was infinitely more exciting and historic ("worthwhile") than almost all the billions of humans who have ever lived.

i) Hitler may have enjoyed the most exhilarating and rewarding existence in the history of the universe.


Doubt it.

You can't really judge how "exciting", "exhilarating" or "rewarding" an existence is from external appearances. There are plenty of people whom you'll never read about that have fantastic lives, and plenty of famous historical figures who have woeful ones. Personally I don't think terms like these can be applied to a "life" as a whole anyway. They are descriptors of experience, and different experiences come and go within any life.

As for "historic", this seems to contradict everything you've written above. If you're just an "island" whose existence and significance stops abruptly when you die, and if it doesn't matter whether the effect of that existence on others is "good" or "evil". . . . . then why would you care about being remembered in history?
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#73  Postby Onyx8 » Jun 16, 2012 7:58 pm

He didn't have kids, did he?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#74  Postby devogue » Jun 18, 2012 2:08 am

Hermit wrote:To begin with, while we are born alone and die alone, nobody is an island while alive.


While we have to interact to survive, we are individually separate (except certain Siamese twins :smoke: ).

Secondly, the occurrences of "therefore" are even more idiotic. Jabberwacky couldn't come up with worse word salad in an attempt to simulate something that has the superficial appearance of an intelligible proposition.


It's just a proposition to stimulate a bit of debate. The "therefores" are just a device to present the proposition.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#75  Postby Hermit » Jun 18, 2012 3:26 am

devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:To begin with, while we are born alone and die alone, nobody is an island while alive.
While we have to interact to survive, we are individually separate (except certain Siamese twins :smoke: ).
Can't you see the social aspects to existence at all?

devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Secondly, the occurrences of "therefore" are even more idiotic. Jabberwacky couldn't come up with worse word salad in an attempt to simulate something that has the superficial appearance of an intelligible proposition.
It's just a proposition to stimulate a bit of debate. The "therefores" are just a device to present the proposition.
The "therefores" add precisely nothing to your propositions except for making you look like you've had a couple of massive brainfades. Do yourself a favour and look up non sequitur, then attempt to avoid them. If you manage to stay clear of gaffes like the above you'll save yourself a lot of embarrassment.

Also, if you succeed, I'll open that bottle of Langmeil's Jackaman's 2007 Cabernet Sauvignon in your honour. I've had it laying down for almost two years now. To tide me over, there's the 2007 Woodstock Cab Sav. :cheers:
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#76  Postby devogue » Jun 18, 2012 3:32 am

Hermit wrote:
devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:To begin with, while we are born alone and die alone, nobody is an island while alive.
While we have to interact to survive, we are individually separate (except certain Siamese twins :smoke: ).
Can't you see the social aspects to existence at all?

devogue wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Secondly, the occurrences of "therefore" are even more idiotic. Jabberwacky couldn't come up with worse word salad in an attempt to simulate something that has the superficial appearance of an intelligible proposition.
It's just a proposition to stimulate a bit of debate. The "therefores" are just a device to present the proposition.
The "therefores" add precisely nothing to your propositions except for making you look like you've had a couple of massive brainfades. Do yourself a favour and look up non sequitur, then attempt to avoid them. If you manage to stay clear of gaffes like the above you'll save yourself a lot of embarrassment.

Also, if you succeed, I'll open that bottle of Langmeil's Jackaman's 2007 Cabernet Sauvignon in your honour. I've had it laying down for almost two years now. To tide me over, there's the 2007 Woodstock Cab Sav. :cheers:


As you well know, I am beyond embarrassment.

I am the John Terry of forumalia. :dance:
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#77  Postby Hermit » Jun 18, 2012 3:39 am

devogue wrote:I am the John Terry of forumalia. :dance:
I don't know who that is. You remind me of Herostratus, though, or - to be more contemporary - Mark David Chapman. Both achieved their aim in life by doing "evil".
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#78  Postby devogue » Jun 18, 2012 3:44 am

Hermit wrote:
devogue wrote:I am the John Terry of forumalia. :dance:
I don't know who that is. You remind me of Herostratus, though, or - to be more contemporary - Mark David Chapman. Both achieved their aim in life by doing "evil".


So did John Terry. :lol:
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#79  Postby Achachay » Jun 18, 2012 2:15 pm

laklak wrote:Well, they had the best tailors.


Underneath those sharp uniforms, they were naked fuckers like everybody else. And at this distance you can't smell their bad breath. They put on a big show, not a GOOD one. They couldn't even destroy Germany, much less everybody else! Future generations would do well to ignore them. We don't seem to have that ability.
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Re: The Magnificence of Nazism

#80  Postby Regina » Jun 18, 2012 5:47 pm

Achachay wrote:
laklak wrote:Well, they had the best tailors.


Underneath those sharp uniforms, they were naked fuckers like everybody else. And at this distance you can't smell their bad breath. They put on a big show, not a GOOD one. They couldn't even destroy Germany, much less everybody else! Future generations would do well to ignore them. We don't seem to have that ability.

The best tailors? Where does this verdict come from?
I suspect from Hollywood movies and the like. In reality, those uniforms were very much like any other on the planet.
Don't take Hollywood seriously is the pro-tip here.

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