The myth of the free speech crisis

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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#21  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 04, 2019 7:20 pm

tuco wrote:
Thommo wrote:
tuco wrote:Not it is not sane response. Sane response is: The criticism in question is not racism and is justified because of a) b) c). Islam is not a race is just .. idiotic response. I mean, oh really? I did not know its not a race. wtf


Cool story bro.


It does nothing to me. You know what you said was idiotic and if you dont, well, lol



What a stunning argument.

An object example of what I was writing about: someone so convinced they're right, but abjectly incapable of establishing anything rational or reasonable to support it.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#22  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 04, 2019 7:20 pm

tuco wrote:Pick a fight? You could respond to my argument, which is clear and of impeccable logic. However, you probably realized that not even your command of the language could get over it so you choose to .. cool story. Pick a fight lol Wanna be on the list? Just say so. No problem for me. Pick a fight wtf

---
edit: Let's play this out because I feel generous.

Person A: <insert critique Islam>
Person B: That is racist. <insert some remarks or arguments>
Person A: Islam is not a race.

How does it address the accusation of racism? It does not address the merit of the critique at all, it does not say why the critique is not racist. It merely points out the obvious. How is it sane? It's impossible to explain its sane.

edit1: and yeah you are on the list because you are too proud to ask. Fuck this bullshit.


And the entire post is juvenile trolling.

Good job.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#23  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 04, 2019 7:23 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:
felltoearth wrote:To be clear, the “Islam is not a race” card has been used in many places including here as a defense as to why racists remarks veiled as comments on Islam (read brown people) are not racist. Peter what’s his face, our former resident Islamophobe, comes to mind here.


He was quite something.



I really think there was must have been some mental health issues because he suddenly plummeted into that wacky extremist world where he'd never exhibited any such behavior in the past. He went from a gentle, frank, articulate chap to a ranting obsessive racist over a very short period of time.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#24  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 04, 2019 7:24 pm

Thommo wrote:Go pick a fight with someone else, I can't be bothered with you.



It's a 'fight' insomuch as being poked at with a stale, wet noodle is a fight. :roll:
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#25  Postby Hermit » Sep 05, 2019 8:56 am

felltoearth wrote:To be clear, the “Islam is not a race” card has been used in many places including here as a defense as to why racists remarks veiled as comments on Islam (read brown people) are not racist.

felltoearth wrote:...a comment about how open discussion about Islam often provides an entry and sometimes cover for bigoted statements about “backwards” people, to give one example. We’ve all seen it get worse than that.

That is probably why publications like the Grauniad bend over backwards to downplay or actually ignore problems that actual racists can latch on to. In my view it's a misguided, probably counterproductive stance, in so far as it provides the opportunity to add "conspiracy" to their talking points.

The ease with which racists manage to deny that they are racist by claiming to speak from a cultural point of view. E.g. Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a.k.a. Tommy Robinson: "I apologise for the fact that what I've represented and said has not resonated individually with Muslims. From day one in the English Defence League, we've wanted to embrace everyone: all colours and all creeds." (Link). A few months ago I have spent quite some time searching for something Robinson said that could be described as unequivocally and undeniably racist. I found nothing.

Conversely, people who do voice criticisms strictly along cultural, social or political rather than genetic lines are frequently accused of racism. In another forum I tried to explain why I prefer the existence of Israel to all its neighbouring nations even though the UN's decision in 1948 amounted to legitimising theft. The result was that I was accused of being racist by supporters of Israel and the supporters of Palestinians all in the same thread. This happened before the Knesset enacted the Basic Law: : Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People in July last year. Since that happened my difficulties justifying my preference have grown immensely.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#26  Postby zoon » Sep 06, 2019 2:04 pm

felltoearth wrote:…..
This is a good start in exploring the concept of language, ideas and violence.


I agree with the presenter of that video that state or social control is coercive, and in that sense violence, but I also agree with his opponents: it’s the way things are. The coercive power of the group, or the state, is the only steady way to prevent the bullying which humans otherwise inflict on each other given half a chance; if it’s the state which is ill-treating some minority, then the answer is not to reduce the coercive power of the state, but to redirect it so that that minority is protected, and the would-be bullies feel the force of the law instead? There will always be tension when coercion is being used to reduce coercion?

The presenter in the video is strongly of the opinion that humans should regard each other as agents with the right to be free agents, not as mere objects. I think it’s only in the context of social enforcement that we have the concept of a person’s right to agency which is free of coercion? Scientifically speaking, we are indeed, almost certainly, objects which follow the laws of physics down to the smallest detail, and to say that we are essentially free agents has to be wrong somewhere. On the other hand, it seems to me correct to say that in (?almost) every functioning human society individual bullies are likely to find themselves being punished by the group as a whole, in a way that does not happen in any other social animal. This is probably an aspect of our having evolved as an ultra-cooperative species. Hunter-gatherers are noticeably egalitarian (e.g. Wikipedia here), in sharp contrast to chimpanzees. It’s this ongoing group protection from individual bullying which underlies the way we see each other and ourselves as essentially free agents?

Free speech, as an aspect of free agency, depends in the same way on protection by the group, that is, the ongoing threat of collective physical violence to counter any kind of coercion which the group consensus does not endorse? There is always going to be tension, bitter arguments about who’s being oppressed are probably as old as our species?
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#27  Postby laklak » Sep 06, 2019 7:03 pm

It's violent ground apes all the way down. We dress it up in constitutions and noble philosophies, but at the end of the tunnel there's a gun. Maybe a nuke.

People don't think it be like it be, but it do.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#28  Postby tuco » Sep 06, 2019 8:22 pm

We can even ask if eliminating violence, respectively aggression, is something we ought to strive for?

I asked, how to tell if certain speech puts someone in danger of violence? It was a rhetorical question. The myth of the free speech crisis .. On this very board believers are not a protected group, as some other groups, and there has been a considerable amount of aggressivity, far beyond saying that hell awaits them "threat", directed towards them. Does it mean that such an attitude does not contribute to violence against them or just nobody cares?
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#29  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 06, 2019 11:30 pm

Only tuco cares about the contrivances he manufactures in order to set everyone else up as being morally inferior.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#30  Postby felltoearth » Sep 07, 2019 12:17 am

Oh. It was rhetorical question. It don’t think you understand how that works, tuco.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#31  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 07, 2019 1:19 am

felltoearth wrote:Oh. It was rhetorical question. It don’t think you understand how that works, tuco.


That's been firmly established already. :coffee:
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#32  Postby Fallible » Sep 07, 2019 6:52 am

tuco wrote:We can even ask if eliminating violence, respectively aggression, is something we ought to strive for?

I asked, how to tell if certain speech puts someone in danger of violence? It was a rhetorical question. The myth of the free speech crisis .. On this very board believers are not a protected group, as some other groups, and there has been a considerable amount of aggressivity, far beyond saying that hell awaits them "threat", directed towards them. Does it mean that such an attitude does not contribute to violence against them or just nobody cares?


Another one for the cool storybook.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#33  Postby tuco » Sep 07, 2019 7:11 am

I went to the pelfdaddy's thread and then I was asking myself .. why did you even go here?
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#34  Postby Fallible » Sep 07, 2019 7:19 am

I think that one’s a bit short for a storybook.
John Grant wrote:They say 'let go, let go, let go, you must learn to let go'.
If I hear that fucking phrase again, this baby's gonna blow
Into a million itsy bitsy tiny pieces, don't you know,
Just like my favourite scene in Scanners .
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#35  Postby tuco » Sep 07, 2019 7:33 am

I like short, do you?
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#36  Postby laklak » Sep 07, 2019 7:42 am

Some things are better short. Prison sentences and dentist visits, for example.
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#37  Postby zoon » Sep 07, 2019 9:32 am

laklak wrote:It's violent ground apes all the way down. We dress it up in constitutions and noble philosophies, but at the end of the tunnel there's a gun. Maybe a nuke.

People don't think it be like it be, but it do.

I think this is the problem with redefining violence as including coercive control with the threat of physical violence in the background: the only conclusion is that functioning human societies are characterised by violence at all times, which doesn’t quite capture the dynamic? In a normally well-functioning group, most people most of the time are in favour of most of the rules (which will include prohibition of individual bullying), they are comfortable with the freedom of action they have within those rules, and will actively uphold them by helping to punish occasional deviance. This agreed/enforced conformity is the air we breathe, we can’t function happily without it?? (In the same sort of way, we don’t notice the air pressure of around 10 pounds per square inch until something goes wrong?)

When individuals or subgroups feel unjustly penalised by some aspect of the group rules, this social pressure becomes obvious to them, they are aware of being coerced? This may be best addressed by shifting the rules, for example, to discourage racism, which has the potential to blow apart large ethnically diverse modern states. It may not be possible to accommodate other minorities, such as paedophiles or psychopaths; as you say, the coercion's there.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#38  Postby OlivierK » Sep 08, 2019 12:23 am

tuco wrote:We can even ask if eliminating violence, respectively aggression, is something we ought to strive for?

I asked, how to tell if certain speech puts someone in danger of violence? It was a rhetorical question. The myth of the free speech crisis .. On this very board believers are not a protected group, as some other groups, and there has been a considerable amount of aggressivity, far beyond saying that hell awaits them "threat", directed towards them. Does it mean that such an attitude does not contribute to violence against them or just nobody cares?

If you can point to evidence of higher-than-average incidences of real-world harm against believers as a group, and give examples from this very board of the sort of rhetoric you think may be an enabling cause of such overrepresentation of believers as victims of violence, then at least you'd have established that it was worth having this discussion. As it is, though, you've got two premises that appear false at worst, and are unevidenced at best, so any conclusions drawn from them are pretty pointless.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#39  Postby tuco » Sep 08, 2019 9:59 am

If I cannot, it then means it does not work on believers, which I would say then casts doubts if it works on any other group. You, if I understand it correctly, connect let's say a call for imaginary violence (hell awaits, which is not even a call but whatever) against a group with real violence against such a group and I wonder if you can point evidence it does indeed correlate. Well, actually I don't.
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Re: The myth of the free speech crisis

#40  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 08, 2019 10:38 am

Good luck making sense of that, OlivierK.
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