Which is more effective?
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felltoearth wrote:I would encourage Xerographica to go to the toothpaste aisle in a pharmacy and look for anything other Colgate or Crest. That's pretty much the height of "free market" capitalism right there.
Wherever evidence is scarce, skepticism should be abundant.
Xerographica wrote:If you don't see how immensely absurd and problematic it is that voting and donating are frequently used to rank all sorts of things, despite the fact that they've never been directly tested and compared.... then I must be terrible at explaining the obvious and/or you must be terrible at understanding it.
From this, he determines that hierarchies, rather than being socially constructed, are simply a natural expression of biological reality. - Robyn Pennacchia, Wonksplainer: Who Is Jordan Peterson And Why Is He The Worst?
The larger point here, however, is not to be scientifically accurate, or to get people to throw themselves into pots of boiling water, but to eliminate the stigma of social hierarchies as a negative and, ultimately, the entire concept of systemic oppression. - Robyn Pennacchia, Wonksplainer: Who Is Jordan Peterson And Why Is He The Worst?
Peterson is telling young men the story they want to hear about themselves and the world around them. That they are “individuals,” that hierarchy and inequality are not bad things, that we live and have always lived in a meritocracy. That people aren’t clamoring for equality because they are good people who want people to be treated fairly and decently, but because they want to manipulate them and put them in gulags. That women are going to be just fine with jumping back into “traditional” gender roles and give them their patriarchy back. That women will not be put off by misogyny. That soon they will be living in a world where they can insult people — and yes, refusing to use someone’s preferred pronoun is insulting to them — and there will be no social consequences for that. That, rather than having enjoyed unearned privileges and advantages, those who have risen to the top of our societal hierarchy did so because they were simply the hardest and best workers. Because they were simply lobsters with more serotonin. - Robyn Pennacchia, Wonksplainer: Who Is Jordan Peterson And Why Is He The Worst?
The thing is, he’s promising these men a world they actually cannot have without the permission of other groups of people. He’s not doing them any favors. If he really wanted to help these “lost men,” he’d help them thrive in the actual world they live in, rather than the way they want the world to be. He’d help them learn to adjust to a world in which the old hierarchies have been dismantled and understand that they’re no more entitled to be at the top of a hierarchy than anyone else is. Or help them learn how to function and love and improve themselves without needing to base that on being “better” than someone else, how to deal with the world in which women don’t want traditional gender roles, and help them to understand that life isn’t a zero sum game in which if someone who has been oppressed gets a right you have, you automatically lose something. - Robyn Pennacchia, Wonksplainer: Who Is Jordan Peterson And Why Is He The Worst?
That last paragraph is familiar. It’s the same thing feminists have been saying to men, that everyone has been saying to MRAs, for years: the patriarchy is not your friend. A hierarchy that puts undeserving white men at the top does no one any favors. It’s almost a Petersonian thing to say, that if you want respect, you have to straighten up and earn it…and it’s ironic that his career is all about promising the opposite, that if you’ve got status, you must have deserved it, so don’t let women and minorities make you work for it.
Xerographica wrote:All the people who voted for Peterson's video must have benefited from it. But voting doesn't reveal how much benefit they derived from it. Therefore, my theory is that voting is a really idiotic way to determine influence. Is this theory idiotic? It might be. But what's truly and most definitely idiotic is not wanting the evidence that can help determine whether a theory is idiotic.
Xerographica wrote:In no case in human history has the potential harm been so much smaller than the potential benefit.
Cito di Pense wrote:Xerographica wrote:All the people who voted for Peterson's video must have benefited from it. But voting doesn't reveal how much benefit they derived from it. Therefore, my theory is that voting is a really idiotic way to determine influence. Is this theory idiotic? It might be. But what's truly and most definitely idiotic is not wanting the evidence that can help determine whether a theory is idiotic.
You're just assuming that people who have the money to donate to determine what you consider the appropriate rankings have some sort of merit of practical utility to decision-making that people without money do not have. This assumption is also your conclusion, which is that spending is never frivolous, which is a bad assumption when making frivolous decisions, and so that's what's idiotic about your proposal. My expectation is that no one will spend a dime to indulge your fantasies, and that is why Jordan Peterson's housekeeper is making out better than you ever will with this kind of raucous idiocy.
Cito di Pense wrote:Another assumption of yours is that it's important to somebody (besides you) how skeptics are ranked, but that's already been mentioned. If it is not as important as you suggest, then the ranking of skeptics afforded by donation won't help anyone much to decide whether voting or spending is the right way to rank anything you've mentioned so far. Consider toothpaste. I'm about as eager to rank brands of toothpaste as I am brands of skeptics. You, on the other hand, might suggest I should try to determine whether ranking skeptics is more valuable than ranking toothpaste. Yeppers.
Cito di Pense wrote:Xerographica wrote:In no case in human history has the potential harm been so much smaller than the potential benefit.
It's too late, Xerographica. Your proposals are so idiotic that people are actually being discouraged from trying to rank skeptics just to test your idiotic theories, and conclude that you are simply trolling a skeptic forum.
I was attached to this city by the god - through it seems ridiculous thing to say - as upon a great and noble horse which was somewhat sluggish because of its bulk and needed to be roused up by a kind of gadfly. It is to fulfill such a purpose that I believe the god has placed me in the city. I never leave off rousing each and every one of you, persuading and reproaching you all day long and everywhere I find myself in your company.
Xerographica wrote:This is part of my assumption. In theory, the most interested people will be willing to spend the most, which will give them more influence on the rankings.
Xerographica wrote:Is it at all possible that they are more interested, and informed, about skepticism than non-donors? Why wouldn't you want to find out?
Xerographica wrote:I'm sincerely pointing out real problems.
Xerographica wrote:If the experiment is conducted, then sure, I might be proved wrong, but there's also a chance that you'll be proved wrong.
Xerographica wrote:...You want me to consider the possibility that my theory is idiotic. I've considered and accepted the possibility, which is why I wouldn't initially conduct my economic experiment on an entire country. But have you considered the possibility that it's actually your own theory that's idiotic? Have you considered the possibility that democracy does far more harm than good?
What you certainly haven't done is explain the harm of using voting and donating to rank prominent skeptics. The worse case scenario is that we don't learn anything about voting versus spending and only a few bucks are raised for this forum. The best case scenario is that lots of money is raised for this forum and we achieve economic enlightenment. In no case in human history has the potential harm been so much smaller than the potential benefit.
zoon wrote:Xerographica wrote:...You want me to consider the possibility that my theory is idiotic. I've considered and accepted the possibility, which is why I wouldn't initially conduct my economic experiment on an entire country. But have you considered the possibility that it's actually your own theory that's idiotic? Have you considered the possibility that democracy does far more harm than good?
What you certainly haven't done is explain the harm of using voting and donating to rank prominent skeptics. The worse case scenario is that we don't learn anything about voting versus spending and only a few bucks are raised for this forum. The best case scenario is that lots of money is raised for this forum and we achieve economic enlightenment. In no case in human history has the potential harm been so much smaller than the potential benefit.
There is at least evidence that democracies can compete and flourish, there are a number of them around. So far, as far as I can tell, there seems to be no actual experimental evidence that your system would work at all, let alone better? Or are there some countries out there which you would regard as being at least closer to your system than to democracy? Which countries would those be?
zoon wrote:If your other thread (here) is an experiment, has anyone actually donated yet? If not, would this be a result which suggests a problem? Or not? (As far as I know, RatSkep's income these days comes from advertisements; we used to be asked occasionally for donations, but this hasn't happened for some years now, and the Donate button at the top of the page seems to have been disabled.)
I apologize, but I am declaring a non-essential-email moratorium. I have three young kids, I have a demanding job, and I am trying to do as much as I possibly can to reform a corrupted political system. It has taken me too long to recognize that I can either do my jobs, or answer email, but I can’t do both.
Further progress requires recognising that America’s economy is an enormously complicated mechanism. As appealing as some more radical reforms can sound in the abstract — breaking up all the biggest banks or erecting prohibitively steep tariffs on imports — the economy is not an abstraction. It cannot simply be redesigned wholesale and put back together again without real consequences for real people. - Barak Obama, The way ahead
And since then, one of the central principles behind my philosophy has been “Don’t destroy all existing systems and hope a planet-sized ghost makes everything work out”. Systems are hard. Institutions are hard. If your goal is to replace the current systems with better ones, then destroying the current system is 1% of the work, and building the better ones is 99% of it. Throughout history, dozens of movements have doomed entire civilizations by focusing on the “destroying the current system” step and expecting the “build a better one” step to happen on its own. That never works. The best parts of conservativism are the ones that guard this insight and shout it at a world too prone to taking shortcuts. - Scott Alexander, SSC Endorses Clinton, Johnson, or Stein
Voters, activists, and political leaders of the present day are in the position of medieval doctors. They hold simple, prescientific theories about the workings of society and the causes of social problems, from which they derive a variety of remedies-almost all of which prove either ineffectual or harmful. Society is a complex mechanism whose repair, if possible at all, would require a precise and detailed understanding of a kind that no one today possesses. Unsatisfying as it may seem, the wisest course for political agents is often simply to stop trying to solve society’s problems. — Michael Huemer, In Praise of Passivity
IHateYouTrebek wrote:I thought I'd let you all know (if you're curious), Xerographica tried his experiment on another forum that took him up on his challenge.
Wealth of Nations won when it came to voting, but Fifty Shades of Grey won when it came to spending - despite the fact that only one person liked fifty shades of grey and spent money on it, a number of other spent money on it just to make it beat wealth of nations.
LucidFlight wrote:Oh, this is excellent information, worthy of a polite chuckle. Don't underestimate the power of the spiteful spender.
Calilasseia wrote:Anyone who thinks money is superior to critical thinking and acting thereupon, has come to the wrong forum.
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