When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

Anthropology, Economics, History, Sociology etc.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#21  Postby Weaver » Jun 16, 2011 12:32 pm

trubble76 wrote:I think the problem comes from who gets to decide what is illegal and what isn't.
Can US servicemen refuse to waterboard captives?
Most countries agree that it is torture, and the US even hanged some Japanese POWs for the crime of waterboarding, so it seems that legality is largely ignored anyway.

Yes, US Soldiers can - and must - refuse to waterboard captives. US Soldiers have not done this since the Phillipine Insurrection, BTW - all the recent waterboarding was conducted by the CIA and various contractors, not the Army.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#22  Postby BlackBart » Jun 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Apparently, James Blunt prevented World War III by refusing to obey orders...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050

And then he went and undid all that good work by recording 'You're beautiful'. Go figure.
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Name: rotten bart
Posts: 12245
Age: 58
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#23  Postby trubble76 » Jun 16, 2011 12:49 pm

Weaver wrote:
trubble76 wrote:I think the problem comes from who gets to decide what is illegal and what isn't.
Can US servicemen refuse to waterboard captives?
Most countries agree that it is torture, and the US even hanged some Japanese POWs for the crime of waterboarding, so it seems that legality is largely ignored anyway.

Yes, US Soldiers can - and must - refuse to waterboard captives. US Soldiers have not done this since the Phillipine Insurrection, BTW - all the recent waterboarding was conducted by the CIA and various contractors, not the Army.


Oh ok, I thought Guantanimo Bay was a military base and therefore assumed that it was servicemen doing the deed. Would it be a US serviceman's duty to stop the act of waterboarding by a CIA operative if they became aware of it? I'm unsure of the nature of the relationship between the CIA and the armed forces, do the CIA command the troops?
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose,
And nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free.

"Suck me off and I'll turn the voltage down"
User avatar
trubble76
RS Donator
 
Posts: 11205
Age: 44
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#24  Postby Weaver » Jun 16, 2011 12:54 pm

CIA personnel are never in command of Soldiers.
I've never been to Gitmo, so cannot comment on the security structure there, or whether the troops securing the overall prison had access to CIA interrogation rooms. But my understanding from media reporting and testimony before Congress is that only CIA personnel and contractors were involved in any way with the "enhanced interrogation" - and much of it happened in overseas locations away from Gitmo.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#25  Postby Juliuseizure » Jun 16, 2011 6:12 pm

BlackBart wrote:Apparently, James Blunt prevented World War III by refusing to obey orders...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050

And then he went and undid all that good work by recording 'You're beautiful'. Go figure.


:lol:

But seriously.

James Blunt wrote:There are things that you do along the way that you know are right, and those that you absolutely feel are wrong, that I think it's morally important to stand up against, and that sense of moral judgement is drilled into us as soldiers in the British army.
Juliuseizure
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 865
Age: 39
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#26  Postby mrjonno » Jun 16, 2011 6:42 pm

No junior soldier has ever been accussed of war crimes for killing someone who also was a soldier (unless unarmed/had surrendered) and I don't think its a junior soldiers job or duty to determine if a war is legal at a national or international level.

I think for senior officers its slightly different and they could possibly be held account for their actions (through its not very likely if they serve in a NATO country)
User avatar
mrjonno
 
Posts: 21006
Age: 48
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#27  Postby james1v » Jun 16, 2011 6:55 pm

When?

When they've been ordered to shoot at me! :shifty:
"When humans yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon". Thomas Paine.
User avatar
james1v
 
Name: James.
Posts: 8948
Age: 62
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#28  Postby pensioner » Jun 16, 2011 8:14 pm

Gallstones wrote:
Juliuseizure wrote:This isn't site feedback; the mods don't need to worry about it.



Humor is permitted and to be appreciated.
The mods do it all the time. That is the stamp of approval.



When I was in Basic, I was given a very pointed lesson regarding this issue. It was as Weaver has said above.
Even so, it is no guarantee that refusing an unlawful order might not still get you in hot water. Unfortunately.


Same for me in the Brit army and I agree your comments about being in hot water.
There’s class warfare, all right,” said US billionaire Warren Buffett a few years ago, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.
User avatar
pensioner
 
Posts: 2879
Age: 83

Country: Uk
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#29  Postby AlohaChris » Jun 16, 2011 10:47 pm

Weaver wrote:Former Lieutenant shitbird refused his duty, and was very lucky to be allowed out on an honorable discharge.


Do you think he wrong?
"Supernatural divinities are the primitive's answer for why the sun goes down at night."
- Cavil of Cylon
User avatar
AlohaChris
RS Donator
 
Name: Chris
Posts: 4453
Age: 50
Male

Country: Uhmerikah
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#30  Postby Weaver » Jun 17, 2011 10:34 am

Yes. Absolutely.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#31  Postby AlohaChris » Jun 17, 2011 12:04 pm

I'm reading a book right now called Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq. It was the Hawaii bit that first caught my interest. I'm about half way through, and our country doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to fighting for the right reasons. :think:
"Supernatural divinities are the primitive's answer for why the sun goes down at night."
- Cavil of Cylon
User avatar
AlohaChris
RS Donator
 
Name: Chris
Posts: 4453
Age: 50
Male

Country: Uhmerikah
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#32  Postby Juliuseizure » Jun 17, 2011 4:00 pm

Ehren Watada was severely punished for refusing to obey an order - he lost his job.
Juliuseizure
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 865
Age: 39
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#33  Postby Weaver » Jun 17, 2011 4:16 pm

He wasn't punished at all. Being allowed to separate under an honorable discharge is not punishment.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#34  Postby Juliuseizure » Jun 18, 2011 2:37 pm

I think loosing ones job and being unemployed is a very unpleasant experience. It could be called a punishment and I can see why many soldiers would be extremely reluctant to disobey orders if they thought it would cost them their jobs, especially where unemployment benefits are not comprehensive and the unemployed are heavily stigmatised.

I'm reading a book on militant Islam - should probably start a thread "When is it permissible for a Jihadi to refuse a Fatwa" except that rabbit hole seems completely interminable for now.
Juliuseizure
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 865
Age: 39
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#35  Postby Weaver » Jun 18, 2011 2:41 pm

While it may well be an unpleasant experience, it is NOT punishment. Permissible forms of punishment are outlined in the Uniform Code of Military Justice - nowhere does it say that honorable discharge is a punishment.

http://www.uscg.mil/legal/mj/MJ_Doc/mcm2008.pdf
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#36  Postby Juliuseizure » Jun 19, 2011 11:15 am

He was fired for refusing to obey an illegal order to deploy. Refusing to obey illegal orders was his duty. All the soldiers who did deploy to Iraq should have been given the boot for obeying illegal orders.

What difference does it make if he has a piece of paper saying honourable or dishonourable discharge? Who cares? He. Was. Fired. Besides, he already obviously thinks the military operation in Iraq was completely dishonourable so I shouldn't imagine a warm handshake from the military establishment would mean much to him at all under any circumstances: on the contrary.

He was very brave to do what he did but he should have carried on and sued for unfair dismissal. I wonder how many threatening phonecalls etc. he got already, probably got scared off, never mind all the unqualified prejudice from other guilt riddled soldiers.
Juliuseizure
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 865
Age: 39
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#37  Postby Weaver » Jun 19, 2011 1:37 pm

Juliuseizure wrote:He was fired for refusing to obey an illegal order to deploy. Refusing to obey illegal orders was his duty. All the soldiers who did deploy to Iraq should have been given the boot for obeying illegal orders.
The order to deploy to Iraq, in support of military operations ordered by our President and approved by our Congress and the United Nations, was most certainly not an illegal order.

You may disagree with the basis of the war - I certainly do - but it was not an illegal war.
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 52
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#38  Postby AlohaChris » Jun 19, 2011 2:02 pm

Isn't that part of the problem? It's not what's illegal, but what is conveniently deemed 'legal' by the powers that be.

The US decides to prosecute a war of aggression/payback, founded on lies, and has the political/economic/military clout to get it authorized/legalized.
"Supernatural divinities are the primitive's answer for why the sun goes down at night."
- Cavil of Cylon
User avatar
AlohaChris
RS Donator
 
Name: Chris
Posts: 4453
Age: 50
Male

Country: Uhmerikah
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#39  Postby The_Metatron » Jun 19, 2011 3:01 pm

The alternative, of course, is a military Junta. "We'll decide what's legal and what's not, just don't worry your pretty little civilian heads about it." Sod that shit!
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 21078
Age: 58
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#40  Postby AlohaChris » Jun 19, 2011 4:35 pm

The_Metatron wrote:The alternative, of course, is a military Junta. "We'll decide what's legal and what's not, just don't worry your pretty little civilian heads about it." Sod that shit!


I disagree,that's not the only alternative. More transparency in government and sticking to the laws you already have is a better alternative. If your doctrine is "no wars of aggression", then you don't attack a country that hasn't attacked you and isn't massing troops on your border. The military (ideally) should be more free to challenge bad decision making/violation of policy, without fear of payback.
"Supernatural divinities are the primitive's answer for why the sun goes down at night."
- Cavil of Cylon
User avatar
AlohaChris
RS Donator
 
Name: Chris
Posts: 4453
Age: 50
Male

Country: Uhmerikah
United States (us)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Social Sciences & Humanities

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest