When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

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Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#81  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 04, 2012 11:51 am

Shantanu wrote:
Weaver wrote:Both.

Professionals have a duty to refuse illegal orders.

Conscripts have a duty to follow lawful orders, regardless of whether they personally approve of each and every operation or not. While they should have the right of declaring themselves overconscientious objectors, that goes for all service, not individual operations.

If they don't like being conscripts, they need to work within their national political system to end the practice. We did.

EDIT - I meant "conscientious objectors" - I had no intent to type "over" in, and can only surmise poor use of a spell checker inserted it. My apologies to anyone offended by my error here.

Professional servicemen join the army to take orders from the government.

Bullshit. I served for 25 years to prevent war. To keep the peace. To support and defend my country's constitution. I had no obligation whatsoever to obey unlawful oders, and was duty bound to disobey such orders.
Shantanu wrote:In a democratic decision making process they carry out the duties of the goverment elected by the people. It is their contractual duty in employment to do as they are told. If they do not like any of the orders, they must leave the armed forces immediately and seek other professions, or the government must sack them. Otherwise the government and the people would be paying them for sitting idle and doing nothing for the money they get. Courts should dismiss their application for determining the lawfulness of the actions that they are required to do because the government cannot afford the wastage of time and resources fighting court cases when it is on a warfooting for the implementation of military action. Professional soldiers are therefore professional order takers. They must do as they are told and fulfill the terms of their contract of service.

Conscripted soldiers are forced against their will to carry out the work of the government to take risks with their lives and kill other people and destroy property. That is against the person's human rights. No one should be forced to destroy life and nature against their will. They should be protected by the provision of legal safeguards that force them to carry out duties against their conscience. The details of their conscientious objections for carrying out certain duties is a matter for them and not for the courts or government to decide the rights and wrongs of.

You really don't know what the fuck you're talking about, do you? There's so much else wrong with what you said, I'll just leave it at that.
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Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#82  Postby Shantanu » Dec 04, 2012 12:18 pm

electricwhiteboy wrote:
Shantanu wrote:
Nicko wrote:
Shantanu wrote:If Watada claims that he did not know that US imperialism never concerned itself with the legality/lawfulness of most of the wars that it engaged in or supported such that US administrations had a history of fighting wars on idealogical or political grounds, he joined the US army with the correct motivation but was also right in taking the step by refusing to serve in Iraq but offering to go to Afghanistan instead. If he knew what US stood for from studying history, he not right to refuse service.


Reread the grounds upon which his refusal to deploy was based. He based his refusal to deploy on the grounds that his commander-in-chief was a liar who had launched an illegal war. That is not a reason to refuse to deploy. It is a reason to declare oneself no longer able to serve.

I would say that If the war in Iraq at the time that it was launched was supported by more than 50 percent of the people of the USA it was a legal war.




What? :what:

The legality of a war is not decided by its popularity with the electorate.

Who is the final aribiter of whether a war is lawful or not in the USA?
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Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#83  Postby Weaver » Dec 04, 2012 12:27 pm

Professional Soldiers sign contracts to follow all LAWFUL orders issued by appropriate authority.

If unlawful orders are issued (as sometimes happens, through ignorance, idiocy or malice), professional Soldiers not only can, but have an explicit duty, to disobey the unlawful order and report it higher up the chain of command.

This is actual military law, not philosophowibble crap. I can cite appropriate regulations if necessary.
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Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#84  Postby Weaver » Dec 04, 2012 12:28 pm

Shantanu wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote:
Shantanu wrote:
Nicko wrote:

Reread the grounds upon which his refusal to deploy was based. He based his refusal to deploy on the grounds that his commander-in-chief was a liar who had launched an illegal war. That is not a reason to refuse to deploy. It is a reason to declare oneself no longer able to serve.

I would say that If the war in Iraq at the time that it was launched was supported by more than 50 percent of the people of the USA it was a legal war.


The judicial system - just like every other question of law.

What? :what:

The legality of a war is not decided by its popularity with the electorate.

Who is the final aribiter of whether a war is lawful or not in the USA?
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Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#85  Postby Shantanu » Dec 04, 2012 12:30 pm

The_Metatron wrote:Bullshit. I served for 25 years to prevent war. To keep the peace. To support and defend my country's constitution. I had no obligation whatsoever to obey unlawful oders, and was duty bound to disobey such orders.

May I ask you: if you are a citizen of the United States and found the Iraq war unlawful, what did you do to support and defend your country's consitution with respect to that war before and after? How did you determine over the 25 years which orders were unlawful?
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Re: When is it permissible for a soldier to refuse an order?

#86  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 04, 2012 1:37 pm

Do you operate under some sort of fantasy that the armed forces actually get to pick and choose with whom the government goes to war? That is otherwise known as a junta.

Apparently, you are completely unaware of the Law of Armed Conflict. You know, Geneva Convention stuff. Do you imagine we do not get training in the forces on such things?

Do you further imagine that any Sgt Snuffy Smith or Lt. Fuzz packs the sand to decide a war is unlawful and refuse to play? General officers with more stars than you can count do not have that authority. Military service isn't like slinging fries at fucking McDonalds. The option to simply quit and go home does not exist.

I have once been issued unlawful orders by my commander directing me to provide government resources to an organization not entitled to them. To my face. After I showed him where in our regulations it was unlawful. Even he had a commander. I saluted smartly, waited until I was dismissed, and marched my ass to the inspector general's office and ended it. A little knowledge about our own rules and regulations is a good basis to know what is and is not unlawful. It doesn't hurt to read the Manual for Courts Martial once or twice, either.
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