Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

Anthropology, Economics, History, Sociology etc.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#21  Postby Clive Durdle » Jul 08, 2012 7:15 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_prostitution

Wiki is fascinating

The Biblical story of Judah and Tamar (Genesis 38) provides a depiction of prostitution as practiced in the society of the time. The prostitute plies her trade at the side of a highway, waiting for travellers. She covers her face; which marks her as a prostitute, available for casual sex, unlike in the Middle Eastern societies of the present day — "he thought her to be a harlot, for she had covered her face".


Solon instituted the first of Athens' brothels (oik'iskoi) in the 6th century BC, and with the earnings of this business he built a temple dedicated to Aprodites Pandemo (or Qedesh), patron goddess of this commerce. Procuring, however, was severely forbidden. In Cyprus (Paphus) and in Corinth, a type of religious prostitution was practiced where the temple counted more than a thousand prostitutes (hierodules, Gr: ιερόδουλες), according to Strabo.


Prostitution in ancient Rome was legal, public, and widespread. Even Roman men of the highest social status were free to engage prostitutes of either sex without incurring moral disapproval,[5] as long as they demonstrated self-control and moderation in the frequency and enjoyment of sex. Latin literature refers often to prostitutes. Real-world practices are documented by provisions of Roman law that regulate prostitution, and by inscriptions, especially graffiti from Pompeii. Some large brothels in the 4th century, when Rome was becoming officially Christianized, seem to have been counted as tourist attractions and were possibly even state-owned.[6] Prostitutes played a role in several Roman religious observances, mainly in the month of April, over which the love and fertility goddess Venus presided. At the same time, prostitutes were considered shameful: most were either slaves or former slaves, or if free by birth relegated to the infames, people utterly lacking in social standing and deprived of most protections accorded to citizens under Roman law.[7] Prostitution thus reflects the ambivalent attitudes of Romans toward pleasure and sexuality.[8]


Augustine of Hippo held that: "If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts". The general tolerance of prostitution was for the most part reluctant, and many canonists urged prostitutes to reform.


In the 7th century, the Islamic prophet Muhammad declared that prostitution is forbidden on all grounds. In Islam, prostitution is considered a sin, as referenced here: "Allah's Apostle forbade taking the price of a dog, money earned by prostitution and the earnings of a soothsayer", attributed to Abu Mas'ud Al-Ansari (Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:34:439). Despite this, sexual slavery was very common during the Arab slave trade throughout the Middle Ages and early modern period, when women and girls from the Caucasus, Africa, Central Asia and Europe were captured and served as concubines in the harems of the Arab World.[11] Ibn Battuta tells us several times that he was given or purchased female slaves.[12]
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive Durdle
 
Name: Clive Durdle
Posts: 4854

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#22  Postby Typist » Jul 09, 2012 10:30 am

I'm not sure about any of this, but here's some speculation you are free to examine.

The family is a basic building block of society. Sex is a significant factor in creating bonds between partners and maintaining them. It's surely not the only factor, but it is a factor deeply rooted in human biology, so it's not something to ignore.

It might be argued that if sex is readily available elsewhere, these bonds are undermined.

To illustrate we might project today's very popular porn industry in to the future. Porn seems to already be quite compelling to many people, even though it is currently delivered over 3 foot square two dimensional screens. We can presume that over coming decades the delivery technology will advance, and the porn experience will become ever more compelling. The imagery may be projected in to the 3D space surrounding the user etc, as we make our way towards a Holodeck era.

What happens when large numbers of people increasingly find more satisfying sex in their computers than they have in their bedrooms?

I don't know, but suspect reasoning something along these lines is what's at the heart of prohibitions on prostitution.
User avatar
Typist
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 151

Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#23  Postby z8000783 » Jul 09, 2012 10:32 am

Typist wrote:I'm not sure about any of this, but here's some speculation you are free to examine.

The family is a basic building block of society. Sex is a significant factor in creating bonds between partners and maintaining them. It's surely not the only factor, but it is a factor deeply rooted in human biology, so it's not something to ignore.

It might be argued that if sex is readily available elsewhere, these bonds are undermined.

So would it be OK if you are a single person?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9333
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#24  Postby Typist » Jul 09, 2012 10:36 am

Well, you got me. It could be argued that readily available sex would encourage many to remain single, which would undermine the family unit building block etc.

I'm thinking of all the folks who have crap jobs they hate, but they stick with the jobs for years because of their kids. Society kinda depends on there being a large number of such reliable folks who become the backbone of the system etc.

Not really sure about any of this...
User avatar
Typist
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 151

Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#25  Postby z8000783 » Jul 09, 2012 10:38 am

Typist wrote:Well, you got me. It could be argued that readily available sex would encourage many to remain single, which would undermine the family unit building block etc.

I've paid for sex and I've had sex for free and believe me, paying for it is cheaper.

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9333
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#26  Postby GWright » Jul 16, 2012 6:18 pm

It is very obvious why prostitution is banned - chiefly it is to prevent the exploitation of women, and so is therefore a noble and just cause.

Paying for the use of a woman's body - in the same way you would hire a car, or pay for a round of golf - is not a very pleasant business, when you think about it. It suggests that women are commodities, rather than people. That is an ugly and socially damaging way to present women.

Prostitution is often portrayed as harmless, or even empowering for women. (Pretty Woman, Belle de jour etc). But in reality it is far more often associated with exploitation, hopelessness, addiction and violence.

I think prostitution is degrading for both parties, and cannot understand how a man who genuinely respected women could use one like a commodity (even it was legal).
User avatar
GWright
Banned User
 
Posts: 93
Age: 43
Male

Country: Scotland, UK.
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#27  Postby GWright » Jul 16, 2012 6:28 pm

Here is information regarding prostitution in the US, from a former porn actress (who is obviously then informed about adult industries and the sex trade):

AGES:
Average age of entry: 14-16 yrs
Average mean age: 31
Average years in prostitution: 11
Percent younger than age 18 at entry: 42%

VIOLENCE IN PROSTITUTION
Traumatized individuals tend to minimize or deny their experiences, especially when
they are in the midst of ongoing trauma, such as war combat or prostitution. This leads
to a decreased rate of reporting violent crimes. Please understand these girls are afraid
of their pimps, and if they told everything that is actually going on behind closed doors,
they fear violent retaliation from the pimp or death. I can personally relate to this
myself!

Threatened with a weapon: 78%
Physically assaulted: 82%

Raped: 82% --many women in this business are confused of the definition of rape. If
rape is as unwanted sex act or coerced, then the statistic would be a much higher
percentage. Some women in prostitution assume there is no difference between
prostitution and rape, and they only call it rape if they were not paid, regardless of the
violence of the act—asking them is like asking someone in a combat zone if they are
under fire. A significant percentage of women currently prostituting deny rape and other
violence because it would be too stressful to acknowledge the extreme danger posed by
johns and pimps!
Raped more than five times: 73%
Current or past homelessness: 84%
As a child, was hit or beaten by a caregiver until injured or bruised: 49%
Sexually abused as a child: 65-95%

PROSTITUTION AND PORNOGRAPHY
Upset by an attempt to make them do what had been seen in pornography: 32%
Pornography made of her in prostitution: 49%

DRUGS AND ALCOHOL USAGE
Drugs: 75%
Alcohol: 26%

WHEN ASKED “WHAT DO YOU NEED?” TO PROSTITUTES
Would you leave prostitution: 87%
Need home or safe place: 78%
Need job training: 73%
Need health care: 58%
Need peer support: 50%
Need legal assistance: 42%
Need alcohol and drug treatment: 67%
Self defense training: 49%


http://www.shelleylubben.com/articles/p ... nstats.pdf

It is quite remarkable that no-one has yet mentioned the reality of prostitution for the women involved in it, as regards why it might be illegal.

Lubben is also, I think, a Christian, but notice the arguments are based on surveying the experiences of prostitutes, not the Bible.

You might argue that a fully legal framework would solve, or mitigate these problems. But we this from others experiences that this is not the case.

For example, prostitution is legal in Holland and Germany. I am familiar with the red light districts of Amsterdam and Hamburg. While they do have a certain charm, or character, they are on the whole not very pleasant places.

What happens when prostitution is not controlled is additional problems and threats to women:

In Amsterdam, Netherlands, 80% of prostitutes are foreigners, and 70% have no immigration papers, suggesting that they were trafficked. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)


http://www.catwinternational.org/factbo ... rlands.php

What happens with legal prostitution is sexual capitalism. Remember, prostitution makes women mere commodities. Therefore, someone who has a lot of commodities to sell, can make a lot of money. This is what creates (in large part) the global trade in trafficked women, who are then forced to work as a prostitute in their destination country - for the financial benefit of her "owner" - in the kind of conditions stated above.

So, the British stag nights / guys tips etc who love to dip their wick during a weekend in Amsterdam are largely using sex slaves and perpetuating demand for sexual slavery. All the while they think it is harmless, given its legal.
Last edited by GWright on Jul 16, 2012 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
GWright
Banned User
 
Posts: 93
Age: 43
Male

Country: Scotland, UK.
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#28  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 16, 2012 6:31 pm

GWright wrote:It is very obvious why prostitution is banned - chiefly it is to prevent the exploitation of women, and so is therefore a noble and just cause.

Except that banning prostitution pushes it underground, where regulation is made difficult if not impossible, and forcing prostitutes to get into shadier situations. Banning does precisely the opposite of what you say it does.

Paying for the use of a woman's body - in the same way you would hire a car, or pay for a round of golf - is not a very pleasant business, when you think about it. It suggests that women are commodities, rather than people. That is an ugly and socially damaging way to present women.

I assume you never use a mechanic to fix your car then--after all, you're just using their body and skills as a commodity. How degrading.

If a man or woman wishes to offer their service as a prostitute, your disgust is not a reason for them to not, nor to make their jobs more difficult by forcing them to be hired by pimps and have no regulatory systems in place to keep them healthy.

Prostitution is often portrayed as harmless, or even empowering for women. (Pretty Woman, Belle de jour etc). But in reality it is far more often associated with exploitation, hopelessness, addiction and violence.

Because it is illegal. Perhaps you should check out how Amsterdam takes care of it: they serve no pimps, they pay taxes on what they make, they are afforded protection and required to have regular checkups. Again, what you're talking about is what happens when its made illegal.

I think prostitution is degrading for both parties, and cannot understand how a man who genuinely respected women could use one like a commodity (even it was legal).

You're welcome to your opinion, but you way wish to consider that this is not necessarily an issue for men or women who choose prostitution as their profession, for pleasure or profit.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 14642
Age: 41
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#29  Postby z8000783 » Jul 16, 2012 6:34 pm

GWright wrote:Paying for the use of a woman's body - in the same way you would hire a car, or pay for a round of golf - is not a very pleasant business, when you think about it. It suggests that women are commodities, rather than people. That is an ugly and socially damaging way to present women.

Have you ever hired out your body for a weekly wage or salary?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9333
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#30  Postby GWright » Jul 16, 2012 6:38 pm

@ SafeAsMilk

I need to pop offline right now, but briefly - its just not the case that legalising prostitution makes it safe for women.

See where I posted above (musta posted at same time):

You might argue that a fully legal framework would solve, or mitigate these problems. But we this from others experiences that this is not the case.

For example, prostitution is legal in Holland and Germany. I am familiar with the red light districts of Amsterdam and Hamburg. While they do have a certain charm, or character, they are on the whole not very pleasant places.

What happens when prostitution is not controlled is additional problems and threats to women:

In Amsterdam, Netherlands, 80% of prostitutes are foreigners, and 70% have no immigration papers, suggesting that they were trafficked. (Marie-Victoire Louis, "Legalizing Pimping, Dutch Style," Le Monde Diplomatique, 8 March 1997)



http://www.catwinternational.org/factbo ... rlands.php

What happens with legal prostitution is sexual capitalism. Remember, prostitution makes women mere commodities. Therefore, someone who has a lot of commodities to sell, can make a lot of money. This is what creates (in large part) the global trade in trafficked women, who are then forced to work as a prostitute in their destination country - for the financial benefit of her "owner" - in the kind of conditions stated above.

So, the British stag nights / guys tips etc who love to dip their wick during a weekend in Amsterdam are largely using sex slaves and perpetuating demand for sexual slavery. All the while they think it is harmless, given its legal.
User avatar
GWright
Banned User
 
Posts: 93
Age: 43
Male

Country: Scotland, UK.
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#31  Postby GWright » Jul 16, 2012 6:41 pm

z8000783 wrote:
GWright wrote:Paying for the use of a woman's body - in the same way you would hire a car, or pay for a round of golf - is not a very pleasant business, when you think about it. It suggests that women are commodities, rather than people. That is an ugly and socially damaging way to present women.

Have you ever hired out your body for a weekly wage or salary?

John


Nope. I hire out the skills of my profession, (Engineer), not the use of my body as an object.
User avatar
GWright
Banned User
 
Posts: 93
Age: 43
Male

Country: Scotland, UK.
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#32  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 16, 2012 6:47 pm

GWright wrote:
z8000783 wrote:
GWright wrote:Paying for the use of a woman's body - in the same way you would hire a car, or pay for a round of golf - is not a very pleasant business, when you think about it. It suggests that women are commodities, rather than people. That is an ugly and socially damaging way to present women.

Have you ever hired out your body for a weekly wage or salary?

John


Nope. I hire out the skills of my profession, (Engineer), not the use of my body as an object.

Did you use your body and mind as an engineer? Yes? Sorry, you're a ho :mrgreen:
Last edited by SafeAsMilk on Jul 16, 2012 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 14642
Age: 41
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#33  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 16, 2012 6:50 pm

GWright wrote:@[color=#CC0000][b] SafeAsMilk[/b][/color]

I need to pop offline right now, but briefly - its just not the case that legalising prostitution makes it safe for women.

See where I posted above (musta posted at same time):

You might argue that a fully legal framework would solve, or mitigate these problems. But we this from others experiences that this is not the case.

I'll check out your quoted source, but my argument wasn't that legalization and regulation would solve all problems forever. My point was that making it illegal, as you've suggested, directly leads to ALL the problems you're talking about. You think human trafficking doesn't occur where prostitution is illegal?
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 14642
Age: 41
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#34  Postby z8000783 » Jul 16, 2012 7:01 pm

GWright wrote:
z8000783 wrote:
GWright wrote:Paying for the use of a woman's body - in the same way you would hire a car, or pay for a round of golf - is not a very pleasant business, when you think about it. It suggests that women are commodities, rather than people. That is an ugly and socially damaging way to present women.

Have you ever hired out your body for a weekly wage or salary?

John


Nope. I hire out the skills of my profession, (Engineer),

How do these skills become actualised?

GWright wrote:....not the use of my body as an object.

I guess you don't think much of people who do labouring jobs then.

John
Last edited by z8000783 on Jul 17, 2012 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9333
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#35  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jul 16, 2012 8:37 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:I did say 'effectively banned' - meaning restricted in some kind of legal way, whether it be the purchasing, selling, soliciting or whatever.

but no one has yet come up with a WHY.

so why is is banned?


I think it has more to do with social and health stigmas than religious. "What's daddy bringing home today?"
"Things don't need to be true, as long as they are believed" - Alexander Nix, CEO Cambridge Analytica
User avatar
CdesignProponentsist
 
Posts: 12686
Age: 53
Male

Country: California
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#36  Postby OlivierK » Jul 17, 2012 2:05 am

Regarding the effects of legalisation of prostitution, not surprisingly there have been follow up studies in jurisdictions where legalisation has taken place, such as the following report on the 10th anniversary of legalisation of brothel prostitution in the state of Queensland, Australia:

http://www.law.uq.edu.au/documents/huma ... p-2009.pdf

It's a good neutral read, and honest about any failings of the Queensland system, and I'd recommend reading it to anyone sincerely interested in the topic.

Specifically, Chapter 7 is devoted to "Lessons learned" and contains the following:

University of Queensland wrote:One of the main objectives and achievements of prostitution regulation in Queensland has been the protection and improvement of the health, well-being, and safety of sex workers. A 2003 report found that women in legal sex work appear to have good occupational health and are safer from violence, harassment, and intimidation that often exist in illegal or unregulated prostitution. This was also confirmed in later reports.

University of Queensland wrote:The many legislative and regulatory requirements relating to the use of prophylactics along with other safe sex practices have significantly reduced the risk of STD transmission in licensed brothels; a fact that is also of primary importance to clients and, more generally, the wider community. In fact, some sources suggest that the risk of STD transmission in legal brothels is lower than in the general population. ... From the available evidence it is probable that sex workers are at greater risk of acquiring a STD from a client than vice versa.

University of Queensland wrote:The risk of physical violence, sexual assaults and other forms of harassment against sex workers also appears to be much lower in licensed brothels. Sex workers in licensed brothels and also those working as sole operators have much lower rates of unwanted sexual experiences compared to street workers. Surveys conducted by the CMC identified licensed brothels as the safest place to work.

University of Queensland wrote:There is ample evidence to show that the legalisation of brothels did not impact negatively on local communities and that the operation of licensed brothels does not have any negative impact on local areas and surrounding neighbourhoods.

University of Queensland wrote:Ten years of prostitution regulation appear to have been highly effective in reducing the nexus between Queensland‘s sex industry, corruption, and organised crime.
User avatar
OlivierK
 
Posts: 9828
Age: 54
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#37  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 17, 2012 4:25 am

GWright wrote:It is very obvious why prostitution is banned - chiefly it is to prevent the exploitation of women, and so is therefore a noble and just cause.


You mean this for all women, including those who choose to do so? They're exploiting themselves? I think that's called 'work'.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 27970
Age: 44
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#38  Postby Varangian » Jul 17, 2012 8:28 am

z8000783 wrote:
GWright wrote:Paying for the use of a woman's body - in the same way you would hire a car, or pay for a round of golf - is not a very pleasant business, when you think about it. It suggests that women are commodities, rather than people. That is an ugly and socially damaging way to present women.

Have you ever hired out your body for a weekly wage or salary?

Car mechanics, etc, are seldom the subject of human trafficking...
Image

"Bunch together a group of people deliberately chosen for strong religious feelings,
and you have a practical guarantee of dark morbidities." - H.P. Lovecraft
User avatar
Varangian
RS Donator
 
Name: Björn
Posts: 7298
Age: 56
Male

Country: Sweden
Sweden (se)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#39  Postby z8000783 » Jul 17, 2012 8:30 am

So is it OK for prostitutes who haven't been trafficked, to sell their bodies?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9333
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#40  Postby Varangian » Jul 17, 2012 8:54 am

z8000783 wrote:So is it OK for prostitutes who haven't been trafficked, to sell their bodies?

It reduces the risk of the slavery element, but there's still the question whether the prostitute have entered the trade voluntarily.

As for the OP, the bible says that it is wrong to commit murder, but having laws against it in a modern society is a case of common sense, not biblical morality.
Image

"Bunch together a group of people deliberately chosen for strong religious feelings,
and you have a practical guarantee of dark morbidities." - H.P. Lovecraft
User avatar
Varangian
RS Donator
 
Name: Björn
Posts: 7298
Age: 56
Male

Country: Sweden
Sweden (se)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Social Sciences & Humanities

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest

cron