Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#61  Postby jamest » Dec 01, 2012 1:59 pm

In Shantanu's defence, I did always think that I lived in a society where one was deemed to be innocent until proven guilty. The evidence against Saville though seems to be overwhelming. I think that a public enquiry - though making Saville's guilt 'official' - would appear to be a waste of money. I've not heard of anyone who has been willing to step forward and say "This is a conspiracy theory, JS was a great man and would never have done such things". Not even his family. There can be no defence if nobody is willing to defend him, because nobody is able to defend him.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#62  Postby Shrunk » Dec 01, 2012 7:54 pm

jamest wrote:In Shantanu's defence, I did always think that I lived in a society where one was deemed to be innocent until proven guilty. The evidence against Saville though seems to be overwhelming. I think that a public enquiry - though making Saville's guilt 'official' - would appear to be a waste of money. I've not heard of anyone who has been willing to step forward and say "This is a conspiracy theory, JS was a great man and would never have done such things". Not even his family. There can be no defence if nobody is willing to defend him, because nobody is able to defend him.


The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" only applies to the situation where one faces conviction in a court of law and subsequent deprivation of basic freedoms. It does not apply to people publicly expressing their opinions of a person's actions. Otherwise, we shouldn't be able to say mean things about Hitler.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#63  Postby Doubtdispelled » Dec 01, 2012 9:32 pm

Shrunk wrote:
jamest wrote:In Shantanu's defence, I did always think that I lived in a society where one was deemed to be innocent until proven guilty. The evidence against Saville though seems to be overwhelming. I think that a public enquiry - though making Saville's guilt 'official' - would appear to be a waste of money. I've not heard of anyone who has been willing to step forward and say "This is a conspiracy theory, JS was a great man and would never have done such things". Not even his family. There can be no defence if nobody is willing to defend him, because nobody is able to defend him.


The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" only applies to the situation where one faces conviction in a court of law and subsequent deprivation of basic freedoms. It does not apply to people publicly expressing their opinions of a person's actions. Otherwise, we shouldn't be able to say mean things about Hitler.

OMG, Shrunk, did you just commit a godwin's?

:lol:
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#64  Postby iamthereforeithink » Dec 01, 2012 9:52 pm

Map of the world showing the legal status of prostitution:

Image

The legality of prostitution and brothels around the world: The green areas are places where prostitution is legal and regulated; the blue areas are regions where prostitution is legal but unregulated and organized activities such as brothels are illegal; the red countries are places where prostitution is illegal. Gray areas signify lack of data.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country

I see no correlation with any particular kind of moral tradition, Christian or other.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#65  Postby tuco » Dec 01, 2012 10:07 pm

On page 4 and still the same hmm .. misunderstanding.

The thread is about the so-called Western nations so whats elsewhere is, more or less, irrelevant. The so-called Western nations have their culture heavily influenced by the so-called Judeo-Christian tradition. Period, no argument. And even if its impossible to prove, to have any relevant data, whether ban on prostitution has roots, in the West, in the so-called Biblical morality or not, everyone is free to make up her/his mind where culture came from.

I suspect the OP is from the US where there are not tits on TV, for example, and again we could argue why that is. Those who see no connection to traditional, conservative, values based on Judeo-Christian tradition are free to come up with more plausible hypothesis, but personally and for the time being I will settle for moralists of the supernatural kind.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#66  Postby Shrunk » Dec 01, 2012 10:15 pm

tuco wrote:On page 4 and still the same hmm .. misunderstanding.

The thread is about the so-called Western nations so whats elsewhere is, more or less, irrelevant. The so-called Western nations have their culture heavily influenced by the so-called Judeo-Christian tradition. Period, no argument. And even if its impossible to prove, to have any relevant data, whether ban on prostitution has roots, in the West, in the so-called Biblical morality or not, everyone is free to make up her/his mind where culture came from.

I suspect the OP is from the US where there are not tits on TV, for example, and again we could argue why that is. Those who see no connection to traditional, conservative, values based on Judeo-Christian tradition are free to come up with more plausible hypothesis, but personally and for the time being I will settle for moralists of the supernatural kind.


But that Judeo-Christian tradition didn't just come out of thin air, nor was handed down from on high (despite what those Judeo-Christians might think themselves). So the view of prostitution, and non-marital sex in general, as morally wrong is something that people came up with on our own, along with the Judeo-Christian tradition. And that factors that led to that in the first place may still be with us, to a greater or lesser degree.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#67  Postby Shrunk » Dec 01, 2012 10:16 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
OMG, Shrunk, did you just commit a godwin's?

:lol:


So it would appear. :oops:
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#68  Postby tuco » Dec 01, 2012 10:18 pm

Shrunk wrote:
tuco wrote:On page 4 and still the same hmm .. misunderstanding.

The thread is about the so-called Western nations so whats elsewhere is, more or less, irrelevant. The so-called Western nations have their culture heavily influenced by the so-called Judeo-Christian tradition. Period, no argument. And even if its impossible to prove, to have any relevant data, whether ban on prostitution has roots, in the West, in the so-called Biblical morality or not, everyone is free to make up her/his mind where culture came from.

I suspect the OP is from the US where there are not tits on TV, for example, and again we could argue why that is. Those who see no connection to traditional, conservative, values based on Judeo-Christian tradition are free to come up with more plausible hypothesis, but personally and for the time being I will settle for moralists of the supernatural kind.


But that Judeo-Christian tradition didn't just come out of thin air, nor was handed down from on high (despite what those Judeo-Christians might think themselves). So the view of prostitution, and non-marital sex in general, as morally wrong is something that people came up with on our own, along with the Judeo-Christian tradition. And that factors that led to that in the first place may still be with us, to a greater or lesser degree.


tuco wrote:The question was about the so-called western countries. Their ethics and laws - culture is heavily influenced by the so-called Judeo-Christian tradition in general and when it comes to prostitution in particular. Where Judeo-Christian morality comes from, if from some cultural universals or something else is another question. Other than that there is such a thing as history of prostitution and one is free to educate her/himself. Prosecute and punish someone who is in disdain is much easier than do the same to someone who is admired. There is no brain surgery here.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#69  Postby Beatsong » Dec 01, 2012 10:20 pm

I'm surprised (from the map) that prostitution is illegal in the USA. Learn something new every day.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#70  Postby iamthereforeithink » Dec 01, 2012 10:24 pm

Beatsong wrote:I'm surprised (from the map) that prostitution is illegal in the USA. Learn something new every day.


Except for the state of Nevada (excluding Las Vegas)
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#71  Postby Doubtdispelled » Dec 01, 2012 10:31 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
OMG, Shrunk, did you just commit a godwin's?

:lol:


So it would appear. :oops:

Not to worry. I won't tell.

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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#72  Postby Briton » Dec 03, 2012 7:25 pm

John P. M. wrote:
And of course physical and emotional abuse from customers. And that 'pimps' act pretty much as slave owners. Others have then pointed out to me that physical and emotional trouble can be had in other lines of work as well, so... It's a tough one.


Surely pimps, and lack of protection for sex workers, are a symptom of the trade being illicit?
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#73  Postby OlivierK » Dec 03, 2012 7:38 pm

Briton wrote:
John P. M. wrote:
And of course physical and emotional abuse from customers. And that 'pimps' act pretty much as slave owners. Others have then pointed out to me that physical and emotional trouble can be had in other lines of work as well, so... It's a tough one.


Surely pimps, and lack of protection for sex workers, are a symptom of the trade being illicit?

Yep. In my jurisdiction, where prostitution is legal, there has been a huge increase in self-employment and brothel management by retired sex workers, and abusive customers at brothels get the police called on them, as abusive customers of other legal businesses do.

It's not some abuse-free utopia, of course, but abuse simply can't be a rationale for criminalisation when criminalisation enables higher rates of abuse.
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Re: Why is prostitution banned - isn't that Biblical morality?

#74  Postby Shrunk » Dec 03, 2012 7:59 pm

Briton wrote:Surely pimps, and lack of protection for sex workers, are a symptom of the trade being illicit?


Here in Canada, anti-prostitution laws were recently overturned by the courts, on the basis that they actually endangered the safety of prostitutes. The laws specifically outlawed running a "bawdy house" and living off the avails of prostitution. So what this meant, in effect, was that a woman who wanted to run a prostitution business out of her home and hire security staff was breaking the law, whereas if she was just hooking on the street that was legal.
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