Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

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Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#1  Postby Kenneth-Kaunda » Jul 03, 2012 8:50 am

All societies seem to have a hierarchy, or pecking order.

Whether it be Capitalist, Socialist or Communist - there is always some kind of system.

Not just on a societal level, but also within the family, group of friends, religious order - even in a hippy peace commune (I lived in one during my youth, so can vouch for this!).

So , I guess , this is some kind of ego expression at work.

Is it possible to do away with this?

Everyone always wants to be the big man to some degree - why?
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#2  Postby Adco » Jul 03, 2012 8:54 am

It is part of nature. The strongest survive through leadership. It happens in the "wild" animal kingdom as well. The male lion is in charge of his pride. The president is in charge of his country,(or supposed to be anyway).
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#3  Postby Kenneth-Kaunda » Jul 03, 2012 8:56 am

it doesn't seem to go away though.

for example, I am an adult man, and my mother still tries telling me what to do (even though I live thousands of miles away from her)

why is this?
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#4  Postby Adco » Jul 03, 2012 9:00 am

Because she loves you.......
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#5  Postby mindhack » Jul 03, 2012 9:26 am

An efficient organization can be measured by its intended and generated output. The level of hierarchical structure depends on the type of output the organization seeks to produce.

Generally speaking hierarchies with strict authority structures are becoming more appealing for organizations which are embedded in more unstable environments. It allows for fast and reliable decision making which is essential for the organization’s durability in turbulant and unpredictable environments.

That’s why an army is highly hierarchical for example, or why it’s so dificult for dictators to be like King Arthur. :lol:
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#6  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 03, 2012 9:37 am

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:Everyone always wants to be the big man to some degree - why?

It might well be in our genes, because we evolved as a social ape in which the alpha male usually enforced his breeding rights in the group, punishing subordinates for "trying it on". However, it's only a "want", not a specific behaviour, commanded by genes.

EDIT: In the case of your mother, it isn't the same instinct.She is just trying to get you to "do the right thing" for your own sake (in her view).
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#7  Postby Kenneth-Kaunda » Jul 03, 2012 9:59 am

you say 'in her view' - that is one of the points I am making.

although she may love me, and mean for the best, it is still an expression of the ego.

I say this because, and I am sure this applies to many people, the fact is that oftentimes she will try to lobby for me do things according to her ideas, when clearly this is not the best option.

A kind of battle of wills within the family unit.

Same with father telling daughter what to do, a battle of wills and ego.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#8  Postby Kenneth-Kaunda » Jul 03, 2012 10:02 am

aren't people just neandarthals with clothes?

we all seem to want to act in a sensible humanistic manner, yet underneath it all we all just want what is best for our egos.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#9  Postby DavidMcC » Jul 03, 2012 10:18 am

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:you say 'in her view' - that is one of the points I am making.

I wasn't disagreeing, I was just trying to answer the "why" in your OP. You had a question as well as making a point.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#10  Postby Adco » Jul 03, 2012 10:28 am

Unfortunately, as parents we tend to think that we know what is best for our children. Part of our ability to reason and "think" makes us think that we always know what is best for others. That is why there are, for example, different political parties because each leader of a party thinks that his ideals etc are the best for the people of the land.

In some ways it is no different between your Mom and Obama, just the intensity. Humans, by nature, want to control and manipulate others because it helps us survive as a species. All animals do that. It is one of the main forces that drives life.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#11  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 03, 2012 1:14 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:aren't people just neandarthals with clothes?


No. We're Homo sapiens in clothes.

There's an underlying erroneous assumption / stereotype there about negative traits of neanderthals.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#12  Postby fingdingus » Jul 03, 2012 1:22 pm

It might not be as selfish as all that, at least not in the mother relationship.

I'm hardly an expert or anything, but given our big brains and little lifespans, the need to help the next generation and pass on information could be very strong for a reason. I would imagine especially so among parents speaking with their own children.

I don't know. Leave your poor mother alone. lol
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#13  Postby mindhack » Jul 03, 2012 1:43 pm

Ok let's try again :)

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:All societies seem to have a hierarchy, or pecking order.

With "hierarchy" I presume, you mean a structure of authority.

Whether it be Capitalist, Socialist or Communist - there is always some kind of system.

These concepts do not imply a certain hierarchy per sé.

Not just on a societal level, but also within the family, group of friends, religious order - even in a hippy peace commune (I lived in one during my youth, so can vouch for this!).

Yep, people organize themselves in various clusters. Some of those will by hierarchically organized depending on the goals of the organization and the environment in which they are embedded.

So , I guess , this is some kind of ego expression at work.

Huh? Doesn't follow.

Is it possible to do away with this?

Do away with what, hierarchies? I think not. We're born into an existing one, the parent-child relationship. Nastily hierarchical. But be glad it exists though or you probably would have died or injured yourself badly a long time ago.

People will continue to organize hierarchies because as it turns out it works very well under certain conditions.

Everyone always wants to be the big man to some degree - why?

I take it you weren't really interested in hierarchies or how and why they exist as they do. Shame.

You have some issue with a bossy parent and blame humanity's ego? :what:
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#14  Postby HughMcB » Jul 03, 2012 1:50 pm

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:it doesn't seem to go away though.

for example, I am an adult man, and my mother still tries telling me what to do (even though I live thousands of miles away from her)

why is this?

My mother does this too. I think you're on to something. :think: :thumbup:
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#15  Postby Ironclad » Jul 03, 2012 2:03 pm

Maybe this system allows us to avoid having a referendum on absolutely every topic or action that needs action within our society.
Decisions needs to be taken on: annual grain sharing, metal for arrows v metal for ploughs, law, trade tax, marriage beyond the tribe. We elect a spokesperson to take on the tedium, in exchange they have sweeping authority and a nice grass hut. This individual gets aides, serfs & messengers.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#16  Postby Kenneth-Kaunda » Jul 04, 2012 4:15 am

mindhack wrote:
I take it you weren't really interested in hierarchies or how and why they exist as they do. Shame.

You have some issue with a bossy parent and blame humanity's ego? :what:


I blame humanity's ego for most of the problems in the world.

Everyone pushes for their own point of view, and this is what causes bigotry.

Even in the hippy commune or church this kind of action is apparent, and seems to be the cause of man's dark side.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#17  Postby AlohaChris » Jul 04, 2012 4:31 am

Chimpanzes are tribal, territorial, hierarchical, have wars and both rape & murder their own kind. Remind you of anyone you know?
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#18  Postby epepke » Jul 04, 2012 4:50 am

Humans don't have to have a hierarchy, actually, but those who do seem to get a conquering and killing advantage over the rest.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#19  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 04, 2012 5:21 am

Kenneth-Kaunda wrote:
mindhack wrote:
I take it you weren't really interested in hierarchies or how and why they exist as they do. Shame.

You have some issue with a bossy parent and blame humanity's ego? :what:


I blame humanity's ego for most of the problems in the world.

Everyone pushes for their own point of view, and this is what causes bigotry.

Even in the hippy commune or church this kind of action is apparent, and seems to be the cause of man's dark side.



It's as much related to humanity's progress - competing and vying for success.
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Re: Why must humans always have a hierarchy?

#20  Postby Kenneth-Kaunda » Jul 04, 2012 6:37 am

that's true for sure.

but how about when one already has success - they seem to want yet more and more.

It seems as if everyone yearns to be ruler of the planet (in their own way) or perhaps even God.

Why does a multi-millionaire need to keep on earning?

boredom perhaps, but seems to be more a case of wanting to display his dominance over others.
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