Do we really need rulers controlling us?

Can we look after ourselves instead?

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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#81  Postby Blackadder » Sep 23, 2013 10:57 am

GrahamH wrote:
Blackadder wrote:A sizeable proportion of the "ordinary" people I encounter on a daily basis would be out of their depth putting a McDonalds wrapper in a fucking litter-bin, let alone wielding executive power. In the UK alone you only have to pick up one of the mass circulation tabloid newspapers to be very afraid of giving their readerships the keys to the nation. The current system of government may be far from perfect but I still prefer the tyranny of the majority administered by an educated elite than the tyranny of the idiots administered by social media.


Nobody is forced to vote (in EU & US at least) so there is already an element of self selection. I assume that would apply even more so in any open government system.

Perhaps participation could involve answering questions to establish that you understand the issue to some level.

There may be as many people that would not want you to have a say over their lives as you do not want having a say over yours. Is that stalemate?

Many posters here seem to want greater engagement from part of society and less engagement from another part.

You also seem already decided that no alternatives are worth discussion, so I guess the verdict is to stick with the status quo.


I was not commenting on relative levels of engagement in governance nor did I claim that no alternatives are worth discussion. My response was to the OP:

Can we use this amazing new technology called the internet in order to look after ourselves as a collective opposed to having rulers govern decisions on our behalf that effect the whole planet?


This is a conjecture about replacing the existing apparatus of government entirely with a direct (local? national? global?) collective administration. Which I would not be in favour of, partly for the reasons I already gave (albeit in my usual flippant style).
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#82  Postby GrahamH » Sep 23, 2013 11:11 am

Blackadder wrote:I was not commenting on relative levels of engagement in governance nor did I claim that no alternatives are worth discussion. My response was to the OP:

Can we use this amazing new technology called the internet in order to look after ourselves as a collective opposed to having rulers govern decisions on our behalf that effect the whole planet?


This is a conjecture about replacing the existing apparatus of government entirely with a direct (local? national? global?) collective administration. Which I would not be in favour of, partly for the reasons I already gave (albeit in my usual flippant style).


I don't see the the OP necessarily proposes " replacing the existing apparatus of government entirely". I take it to mean the opening up of the representative levels (elected politicians) that make policy. I think we can assume that the departments that execute policy will remain in some form.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#83  Postby Blackadder » Sep 23, 2013 12:01 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Blackadder wrote:I was not commenting on relative levels of engagement in governance nor did I claim that no alternatives are worth discussion. My response was to the OP:

Can we use this amazing new technology called the internet in order to look after ourselves as a collective opposed to having rulers govern decisions on our behalf that effect the whole planet?


This is a conjecture about replacing the existing apparatus of government entirely with a direct (local? national? global?) collective administration. Which I would not be in favour of, partly for the reasons I already gave (albeit in my usual flippant style).


I don't see the the OP necessarily proposes " replacing the existing apparatus of government entirely". I take it to mean the opening up of the representative levels (elected politicians) that make policy. I think we can assume that the departments that execute policy will remain in some form.


Really? I see no reference to any such thing. Clearly English comprehension is not my strong suit. Oh well, carry on.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#84  Postby GrahamH » Sep 23, 2013 12:24 pm

Veenet may clarify, but this...

Veenet wrote:Can we use this amazing new technology called the internet in order to look after ourselves as a collective opposed to having rulers govern decisions on our behalf that effect the whole planet?


reads to me as an issue of rulers' governing decision-making, i.e. policy, not implementation of that policy. I.e. it is about alternatives to representative democracy - elected politicians.

You could read " look after ourselves" as referring to the entire organisational structure, some anarchic commune or something, but I suspect that isn't how Veenet meant it.

Irrespective of the scope of the OP there is a discussion that can be had about degrees of collective governance and what might be feasible. If you think elected members are necessary you can consider how their decision making might be better connected to the peoples' views.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#85  Postby Regina » Sep 23, 2013 5:46 pm

Do we really need rulers controlling us?

Yes.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#86  Postby Veenet » Sep 23, 2013 7:10 pm

don't see the the OP necessarily proposes " replacing the existing apparatus of government entirely". I take it to mean the opening up of the representative levels (elected politicians) that make policy. I think we can assume that the departments that execute policy will remain in some form.


He is correct.

Do we really need rulers controlling us?

Yes.


it depends on your definition of rulers. Why do we need someone ruling us? We don't. We need people to help organize us but not RULE us.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#87  Postby Sovereign » Sep 24, 2013 6:00 am

So ruling is not organizing and leading? Didn't government evolve out of the need for groups, as they grew, to operate efficiently? I haven't seen a pseudo-anarchist(not sure if that's even a term) yet alone an anarchist society do well at all.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#88  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 6:05 am

Sovereign wrote:So ruling is not organizing and leading? Didn't government evolve out of the need for groups, as they grew, to operate efficiently? I haven't seen a pseudo-anarchist(not sure if that's even a term) yet alone an anarchist society do well at all.


Hey, I'll play that game with you. Where did the need for growth come from? Without the efficient operation, the sizes of social groups will be limited by predation and the grazing capacity, or something like that. One bottle of Special Sauce, comin' up.

It looks like a classic chicken-egg problem. Some people's desire to lead exceeds that of others. That's how you recognise this whole conversation as the purest wibble. But, if you hold a degree in Political Science in your grubby little fists, you're an expert. There's the old bromide about fields of study with the word 'science' in their names. Library Science comes to mind. Domestic Science. Even Computer Science.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#89  Postby Sovereign » Sep 24, 2013 6:25 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Sovereign wrote:So ruling is not organizing and leading? Didn't government evolve out of the need for groups, as they grew, to operate efficiently? I haven't seen a pseudo-anarchist(not sure if that's even a term) yet alone an anarchist society do well at all.


Hey, I'll play that game with you. Where did the need for growth come from? Without the efficient operation, the sizes of social groups will be limited by predation and the grazing capacity, or something like that. One bottle of Special Sauce, comin' up.

It looks like a classic chicken-egg problem. Some people's desire to lead exceeds that of others. That's how you recognise this whole conversation as the purest wibble. But, if you hold a degree in Political Science in your grubby little fists, you're an expert. There's the old bromide about fields of study with the word 'science' in their names. Library Science comes to mind. Domestic Science. Even Computer Science.


Well apparently a new paper out is saying our need to kill each other caused that want.

And didn't both the chicken and the egg evolve together over time? 8-)
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#90  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 6:34 am

Sovereign wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Sovereign wrote:So ruling is not organizing and leading? Didn't government evolve out of the need for groups, as they grew, to operate efficiently? I haven't seen a pseudo-anarchist(not sure if that's even a term) yet alone an anarchist society do well at all.


Hey, I'll play that game with you. Where did the need for growth come from? Without the efficient operation, the sizes of social groups will be limited by predation and the grazing capacity, or something like that. One bottle of Special Sauce, comin' up.

It looks like a classic chicken-egg problem. Some people's desire to lead exceeds that of others. That's how you recognise this whole conversation as the purest wibble. But, if you hold a degree in Political Science in your grubby little fists, you're an expert. There's the old bromide about fields of study with the word 'science' in their names. Library Science comes to mind. Domestic Science. Even Computer Science.


Well apparently a new paper out is saying our need to kill each other caused that want.

And didn't both the chicken and the egg evolve together over time? 8-)


I think interdisciplinary studies are pursued either as a result of failures to succeed in any specific field or an acknowledgement that the marketing hype for interdisciplinary studies has suckered a lot of people. First you construct a problem that can only be solved via an interdisciplinary approach. Then, you solve it. Data mining is fundamentally not data-driven.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#91  Postby surreptitious57 » Sep 24, 2013 6:54 am

Sovereign wrote:
So ruling is not organizing and leading? Did not government evolve out of the need for groups, as they grew, to operate efficiently? I have not seen a pseudo-anarchist(not sure if that is even a term) yet alone an anarchist society do well at all

History shows that society cannot function unless as a pyramid structure. That seems to be the one fundamental and that
is because of the essential nature of homo sapiens. But this is not something that can be manipulated because hierarchal structures also exist within the rest of the animal kingdom too. So it is as if we are actually hardwired for it
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#92  Postby Cito di Pense » Sep 24, 2013 7:39 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sovereign wrote:
So ruling is not organizing and leading? Did not government evolve out of the need for groups, as they grew, to operate efficiently? I have not seen a pseudo-anarchist(not sure if that is even a term) yet alone an anarchist society do well at all

History shows that society cannot function unless as a pyramid structure. That seems to be the one fundamental and that
is because of the essential nature of homo sapiens. But this is not something that can be manipulated because hierarchal structures also exist within the rest of the animal kingdom too. So it is as if we are actually hardwired for it


I think you almost have this sorted, surr, but you won't ever twig it, mainly because you're stuck in essentialist thinking.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Do we really need rulers controlling us?

#93  Postby Regina » Sep 24, 2013 8:40 am

Veenet wrote:
don't see the the OP necessarily proposes " replacing the existing apparatus of government entirely". I take it to mean the opening up of the representative levels (elected politicians) that make policy. I think we can assume that the departments that execute policy will remain in some form.


He is correct.

Do we really need rulers controlling us?

Yes.


it depends on your definition of rulers. Why do we need someone ruling us? We don't. We need people to help organize us but not RULE us.

I would have thought my definition of rulers was pretty clear. I was wrong.
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