Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

Reparations?

Discussions about society in general and social activity.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#101  Postby Thommo » May 01, 2013 6:05 pm

natselrox wrote:That's called privilege blindness. I wasn't specifically referring to you as being 'privileged', I was pointing out the general bias present in a system of privilege against certain classes of people (based on their race, gender, etc.)

Here's a good introduction to the topic of System of Privilege.

http://blip.tv/allan-g-johnson/people-s ... on-2812135


Interesting clip, thanks for posting.

He speaks very well, but I couldn't help noticing that a number of the characteristics of the system he describes as routinely happening (and indeed being necessary for the system) are things I've never seen, such as parents not inviting children of other ethnicities to birthday parties, and things that are rare, such as referring to ethnic minorities as "non-white". Are these things that are routine in other people's experience?
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27175

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#102  Postby natselrox » May 01, 2013 6:15 pm

Thommo wrote:
natselrox wrote:That's called privilege blindness. I wasn't specifically referring to you as being 'privileged', I was pointing out the general bias present in a system of privilege against certain classes of people (based on their race, gender, etc.)

Here's a good introduction to the topic of System of Privilege.

http://blip.tv/allan-g-johnson/people-s ... on-2812135


Interesting clip, thanks for posting.

He speaks very well, but I couldn't help noticing that a number of the characteristics of the system he describes as routinely happening (and indeed being necessary for the system) are things I've never seen, such as parents not inviting children of other ethnicities to birthday parties, and things that are rare, such as referring to ethnic minorities as "non-white". Are these things that are routine in other people's experience?


I can't really comment. The discrimination scenario is very different in India.
When in perplexity, read on.

"A system that values obedience over curiosity isn’t education and it definitely isn’t science"
User avatar
natselrox
 
Posts: 10037
Age: 109
Male

India (in)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#103  Postby Thommo » May 01, 2013 6:24 pm

natselrox wrote:I can't really comment. The discrimination scenario is very different in India.


Yeah, I guess it would be.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27175

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#104  Postby Mr.Samsa » May 01, 2013 11:35 pm

Varangian wrote:
If I were to employ people, I would choose from all those minorities that earn less than the whites. Same performance for less money! ;)


Except in real life most people don't accept that whites and minorities can perform at the same level. They rationalise it away by claiming that they don't work as hard, or even claim that they only got to where they are due to "hand outs", and sometimes even accept that they are just as qualified but reject them because they want someone who can fit into the team environment (with the assumption that foreigners and minorities couldn't relate to the other staff).

It is a sad comment on the state of the world though - currently employers can get away with paying minorities less money and they still refuse to hire them at the same rate as whites. How racist does society have to be that people who are out to make money will actively spend more money on, what is essentially, the same thing in order to avoid hiring black people?

Thommo wrote:
natselrox wrote:That's called privilege blindness. I wasn't specifically referring to you as being 'privileged', I was pointing out the general bias present in a system of privilege against certain classes of people (based on their race, gender, etc.)

Here's a good introduction to the topic of System of Privilege.

http://blip.tv/allan-g-johnson/people-s ... on-2812135


Interesting clip, thanks for posting.

He speaks very well, but I couldn't help noticing that a number of the characteristics of the system he describes as routinely happening (and indeed being necessary for the system) are things I've never seen, such as parents not inviting children of other ethnicities to birthday parties, and things that are rare, such as referring to ethnic minorities as "non-white". Are these things that are routine in other people's experience?


They've been fairly routine in the countries I've lived in.
Image
Mr.Samsa
 
Posts: 11370
Age: 35

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#105  Postby Imagination Theory » May 02, 2013 12:41 am

Thommo wrote:
natselrox wrote:That's called privilege blindness. I wasn't specifically referring to you as being 'privileged', I was pointing out the general bias present in a system of privilege against certain classes of people (based on their race, gender, etc.)

Here's a good introduction to the topic of System of Privilege.

http://blip.tv/allan-g-johnson/people-s ... on-2812135


Interesting clip, thanks for posting.

He speaks very well, but I couldn't help noticing that a number of the characteristics of the system he describes as routinely happening (and indeed being necessary for the system) are things I've never seen, such as parents not inviting children of other ethnicities to birthday parties, and things that are rare, such as referring to ethnic minorities as "non-white". Are these things that are routine in other people's experience?


It has been common from my experience.

EDIT

I've lived in all but one of the continents, by the by.
Я пью за разоренный дом,
За злую жизнь мою,
За одиночество вдвоем,
И за тебя я пью, -
За ложь меня предавших губ,
За мертвый холод глаз,
За то, что мир жесток и груб,
За то, что Бог не спас.


Андре́евна

אני מתגעגע הביתה
User avatar
Imagination Theory
 
Posts: 5981

Botswana (bw)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#106  Postby Loren Michael » May 02, 2013 12:37 pm

Varangian wrote:
Thommo wrote:No, you're talking about both, at the same time and it's an error.

A black man in Wil's situation cannot necessarily expect to earn 25% more than Wil. A black man in Wil's situation can expect to earn 25% more than a white man in Wil's situation. These two things are different.

Although Wil is a specific white man, he is not necessarily representative of white men (as a group). This is why the group level generalisation cannot be applied on a case-by-case basis.

In other words, it is very possible that the answer to:-
"Or that you'll earn on average 25% more than equally qualified black men, you don't think you are receiving any kind of benefit?" is that Wil receives no benefit, though I do not know whether in fact this is or is not the case.

If I were to employ people, I would choose from all those minorities that earn less than the whites. Same performance for less money! ;)


If I recall correctly, that sentiment is one of the bits of Milton Friedman's argument against affirmative action.

I wish I could remember the rest. It was interesting.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#107  Postby Panderos » May 02, 2013 1:49 pm

Loren Michael wrote:
Varangian wrote:If I were to employ people, I would choose from all those minorities that earn less than the whites. Same performance for less money! ;)

If I recall correctly, that sentiment is one of the bits of Milton Friedman's argument against affirmative action.

Yes and after 1000 years we might notice the difference between the companies that did this and those that didn't and wages might even out.. But if we don't want to wait..
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
User avatar
Panderos
 
Posts: 2971

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#108  Postby Sovereign » May 05, 2013 4:21 pm

I found this cited in an article that was referenced in another thread.

Schools are suspending and expelling students at a rate more than double that of 1974. In 2006, more than 3.3 million students were suspended out-of-school at least once and 102,000 were expelled.

Students of color and students with disabilities are more likely to be suspended and expelled than their peers for the same behavior.

In OCR’s 2006 data collection for the 2005-2006 school year, African-American students were nearly three times as likely to be suspended and 3.5 times as likely to be expelled than their white peers.

Students with disabilities are suspended and expelled at a rate roughly twice that of their non-disabled peers.

The majority of suspensions are for minor misbehavior, including “disruptive behavior,” “insubordination,” or school fights, which can be interpreted in subjective and biased ways (even unintentional).

In its 2006 review of exclusionary and zero-tolerance disciplinary policies, the American Psychological Association found no evidence that the use of suspension, expulsion, or zero-tolerance policies has resulted in improvements in student behavior or increases in school safety.

They found that suspensions and expulsions are linked to an increased likelihood of future behavior problems, academic difficulty, detachment and dropout.

http://www.dignityinschools.org/files/D ... _Sheet.pdf
Sovereign
 
Posts: 2989
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#109  Postby Mayak » May 17, 2013 7:35 am

Thommo wrote:
natselrox wrote:That's called privilege blindness. I wasn't specifically referring to you as being 'privileged', I was pointing out the general bias present in a system of privilege against certain classes of people (based on their race, gender, etc.)

Here's a good introduction to the topic of System of Privilege.

http://blip.tv/allan-g-johnson/people-s ... on-2812135


Interesting clip, thanks for posting.

He speaks very well, but I couldn't help noticing that a number of the characteristics of the system he describes as routinely happening (and indeed being necessary for the system) are things I've never seen, such as parents not inviting children of other ethnicities to birthday parties, and things that are rare, such as referring to ethnic minorities as "non-white". Are these things that are routine in other people's experience?


Nope, everyone was invited to my birthday party.
Mayak
 
Posts: 1172

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#110  Postby 3571113 » May 19, 2013 3:44 am

Past conditions and events heavily influence and/or cause later events. Slavery, brutal oppression of freed slaves, Jim Crow laws, discrimination, etc. are largely responsible for the disadvantages which Black people face. Several conclusions that people would like to draw do not necessarily follow:

1. Individual responses to historical experiences vary greatly. What was extremely destructive for one individual was not equally destructive for another.
2. There is no method acceptable to most people that would produce a figure of "deserved compensation".
3. There is no certainty that reparation payments would result in any significant "reparation". Pick a wronged group - any wronged group, no matter how far back the wrong occurred. Give each individual $1000, or some other figure of your liking. Have you now settled the score? I suspect that most recipients would disagree that $1000 settled anything.
4. All oppressed groups have to accomplish their own liberation, eventually. Blacks have been freed of slavery, freed of Jim Crow laws, freed of the crudest discrimination, have been the recipients of dozens of programs which have transferred large sums of money to blacks--as a group. Schools have been integrated, equal opportunity laws are enforced, and so on and so forth.

In the prosperous, generally quite liberal state in which I live, blacks form a distinct underclass. As a group and individually, their school performance is terrible. Their health outcomes are worse than any other groups, regardless of neighborhood, number of doctor visits, and so forth. Their involvement with the criminal justice system is much higher than any other minority group. Their unemployment rates are deplorable.

Only some of their situation can be traced to the majority culture institutions. A substantial amount of the responsibility for their performance likes with them -- just as it did and does with every other group who has been the subject of discrimination. If blacks--individually and as a community--want to gain admittance to the mainstream culture, they will have to do the following things:

The parents of black children will have to learn how to raise children who can succeed. The average poor black child hears far fewer words spoken during the early years of life, during language acquisition, than Asian and white children. The same children hear twice as many negative words directed at them as Asian and white children. Language is developed face to face, not television to face. Books, magazines, educational television, and a clear privileging of learning success needs to be put into place.

The black community will need to reject street culture. It may help one survive on the street, but once you have done that, what do you have? Nothing.

The white establishment has to help reconnect men and fathers with their families. Past welfare rules and arrest/criminal practices have pretty much stripped adult black men from the black community. The policies that achieve this have to be abandoned.

Appropriate employment has to be made available. Frankly a lot of blacks are not ready to enter the competitive technical work place. Unskilled labor, sure. Technology based jobs? Not so much. It isn't that they could never do these jobs, but that they can't do these jobs UNLESS they engage in the educational and work culture which has the cash to reward them.

Meaningful reparations are not a cash handout: they are a radical change in life circumstances which the recipient must actively participate in with enthusiasm. Will they line up around the block for the opportunity? Over time, I think they will -- once peers begin to see that studying, learning, dressing well, talking like an educated person, and behaving like an adult can pay off handsomely. IF they reject such a real opportunity, then they can go to hell.
3571113
 
Name: Michael Jefferis
Posts: 3

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#111  Postby campermon » May 19, 2013 9:33 am

Welcome to the forum Michael! :beer:

Here's a little something for new members here.

When you get a chance, be sure to introduce yourself here

campermon
:cheers:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
User avatar
campermon
RS Donator
 
Posts: 17437
Age: 51
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#112  Postby Doubtdispelled » May 20, 2013 8:58 am

Only some of their situation can be traced to the majority culture institutions. A substantial amount of the responsibility for their performance likes with them -- just as it did and does with every other group who has been the subject of discrimination.

Now there's a nice blanket statement if ever there was one.

:coffee:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

― Mark Twain
Doubtdispelled
 
Posts: 11836

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#113  Postby Loren Michael » May 20, 2013 9:15 am

I thought that was an interesting post!

I'd like more elaboration on the bit highlighted by Doubtdispelled, but I tend to agree with a lot of what was said. I would rate the usefulness of cash a bit higher than 3571113 I think, but I think there are significant structural problems that will cause a simple cash payment to be wasted and/or leeched away.

Money is good, but it's not good enough. More is needed.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#114  Postby Doubtdispelled » May 20, 2013 10:40 am

It is an interesting post, Loren, but imo there's more wrong with it than just one blanket statement.

This, for instance..
The average poor black child hears far fewer words spoken during the early years of life, during language acquisition, than Asian and white children.
also begs scrutiny, especially in the light of this article.

And this
The same children hear twice as many negative words directed at them as Asian and white children.

requires evidence if it is to be believed.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

― Mark Twain
Doubtdispelled
 
Posts: 11836

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#115  Postby Thommo » May 20, 2013 11:15 am

I'm sceptical of both the language claim and that rebutting article.

From the article:-
Children mainly learn language from their playmates, not from parents or schoolteachers. In any case, anyone who has been in a black ghetto household knows full well there is plenty of talking going on.


Why then do I share an accent, inflection and vocabulary that is very similar to my father's and almost nothing like the kids I went to school with? Am I an exception? Perhaps I am, but I think these kind of claims need substantiation, particularly on points like what the definition of "mainly" is here.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27175

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#116  Postby Doubtdispelled » May 20, 2013 11:24 am

Thommo wrote:I'm sceptical of both the language claim and that rebutting article.

From the article:-
Children mainly learn language from their playmates, not from parents or schoolteachers. In any case, anyone who has been in a black ghetto household knows full well there is plenty of talking going on.


Why then do I share an accent, inflection and vocabulary that is very similar to my father's and almost nothing like the kids I went to school with? Am I an exception? Perhaps I am, but I think these kind of claims need substantiation, particularly on points like what the definition of "mainly" is here.

Yes, I read that line about children learning language mainly from their playmates and thought 'Er.. no', but the rest of the article does make some valid points nevertheless. It was on the first page of results returned from a search 'black parents do not talk to their children', and you may call me lazy for not digging further to find something which does not contain any errors if you like. :smile:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

― Mark Twain
Doubtdispelled
 
Posts: 11836

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#117  Postby Thommo » May 20, 2013 11:28 am

Doubtdispelled wrote:Yes, I read that line about children learning language mainly from their playmates and thought 'Er.. no', but the rest of the article does make some valid points nevertheless. It was on the first page of results returned from a search 'black parents do not talk to their children', and you may call me lazy for not digging further to find something which does not contain any errors if you like. :smile:


Well, it's good enough to get the discussion started at least! You've got me interested in what the underlying research says.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27175

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#118  Postby Mr.Samsa » May 20, 2013 12:32 pm

Thommo wrote:I'm sceptical of both the language claim and that rebutting article.

From the article:-
Children mainly learn language from their playmates, not from parents or schoolteachers. In any case, anyone who has been in a black ghetto household knows full well there is plenty of talking going on.


Why then do I share an accent, inflection and vocabulary that is very similar to my father's and almost nothing like the kids I went to school with? Am I an exception? Perhaps I am, but I think these kind of claims need substantiation, particularly on points like what the definition of "mainly" is here.


Looking at how it's used in the article, I think the author might be using "language" in a very specific way to refer to a particular aspect of language but doesn't clarify exactly what they mean. So the claim "Children mainly learn language from their playmates...", they might mean that they mainly learn new words, or grammatical structure, from their playmates rather than teachers or parents. Which would make more sense as if we mostly learnt those things from teachers then our language-use should be more accurate than it generally is (since we'd be following formal rules rather than social conventions) and it explains why youths speak radically differently than their parents.

As such, it wouldn't be referring to language acquisition, or dialect formation, or anything like that which would likely be predominantly a product of your interaction with parents and close family.

Just a guess though, they might be talking entirely out of their ass.
Image
Mr.Samsa
 
Posts: 11370
Age: 35

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#119  Postby Loren Michael » May 20, 2013 12:48 pm

I only have a memory-anecdote, but I've actually heard the article's claim: children talk like more like their peers than their parents. That makes sense to me; we tend to conform to a lot of the social pressures around us, and while some of us spend an inordinate amount of time with our parents in our younger years, many of us spend more and more time with our friends and classmates and teachers.

But I don't say that with a citation, so feel free to grain-of-salt my words.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#120  Postby Fallible » May 20, 2013 4:42 pm

Thommo wrote:I'm sceptical of both the language claim and that rebutting article.

From the article:-
Children mainly learn language from their playmates, not from parents or schoolteachers. In any case, anyone who has been in a black ghetto household knows full well there is plenty of talking going on.


Why then do I share an accent, inflection and vocabulary that is very similar to my father's and almost nothing like the kids I went to school with? Am I an exception? Perhaps I am, but I think these kind of claims need substantiation, particularly on points like what the definition of "mainly" is here.


No, you're not. We live in the Liverpool area, and yet my daughter clearly exhibits many characteristics of my accent which is a kind of mashup of south west twang, south east clippedness and the occasional Irish tweak despite her having only ever attended schools in the north west. Oddly her father is northern too and she still hasn't picked much of it up despite being exposed to it both at school and at home. The exception is that she says 'bAth' not 'baaahth'.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 48
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Sociology

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest