Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

Reparations?

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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#141  Postby Loren Michael » May 30, 2013 4:05 am

willhud9 wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32hgzIGBa6g[/youtube]

I love Penn and Teller. Yep, reparations are indeed...BULLSHIT. :shh:


Mr. Samsa had a very nice rebuttal to a good deal of what you've said and you're leaving it unaddressed.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/socio ... l#p1699449

Now you're dropping in with videos without any kind of argument to supplement them. That's uncool. I think that if you were interested in having an understanding of this topic you'd be more engaged with what people are talking about and less inclined to offer simple video/opinion ("indeed...BULLSHIT") drive-bys.
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#142  Postby epepke » May 30, 2013 6:15 am

willhud9 wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32hgzIGBa6g[/youtube]

I love Penn and Teller. Yep, reparations are indeed...BULLSHIT. :shh:


It's sad that P&T seldom fail to disappoint. There are some good points in the video, but I really hate that "smallpox infected blanket" bullshit. You might just barely be able to take bedding just used by a smallpox patient, put it in a plastic bag to keep it from drying out, ship it overnight with some temperature control, and have some viable virus particles. Then you'd have to figure out how to get it into the person, which is not very easy.With the shipping methods then, there is no way in hell.

Native Americans got smallpox the old-fashioned way.
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#143  Postby Agrippina » May 30, 2013 7:36 am

I think P&T just rant too much. They're entertainers more than activists, so they'll say whatever is going to up their ratings. (Ooops I think I did it again :hide:).
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#144  Postby Panderos » May 30, 2013 9:22 am

Imagination Theory wrote:Yes, that is the problem. We wouldn't know of some non white/non Western/women scientists, would we?

The Scientific Revolution happened in Europe, it didn't happen in Asia or Africa. Thus, there are more (way more) European scientists during that period from anywhere else. As for non whites, well there weren't many in Europe and those that were there tended not to be wealthy enough or well educated enough or have access to the right institutions etc. Women tended to be excluded too, as they were in many things. Sexist times or whatever. But we do know of some, such as Caroline Herschel. There is a list here. the most famous is probably Marie Curie. She remains the only person to have won the Nobel Prize in two different scientific fields.

This is not a result of racially or geographically prejudiced history teaching, it's just fact. I suspect even Mr Samsa would agree with me on this point.

Imagination Theory wrote:And there wouldn't be as many for various reasons, like them being slaves or considered "barbaric", their ideas stolen, burned away, them having little to no formal education because they weren't allowed any, etc. We should learn why there are less, or why it seems there are less non white/non Western/women scientists. Don't you think so?

There wouldn't be as many non Western because other people were in the wrong place. My point isn't that westerners are superior, let's remember what we are talking about here. My point was that surreptitious' anecdote about people not being able to name Asian scientists is not a good indicator of bias teaching, it is very much a reflection of people's understanding of scientist referring to an age in which nearly all such people were European. Even America doesn't make much of a dent until the 20th century. Do you think there is an anti-American bias in history teaching?

As for 'we should learn why there are less etc', I'm not going to agree or disagree, just because I want to stick to my original point.

Imagination Theory wrote:I just find it odd, as you yourself said "I'm no historian of science", yet you made a claim that said "and most of the big name 'scientists' as we use the word, the more modern ones, were indeed western". I assume you said that because that is what it seems like to you and the reason it seems like that to you is because your history showed many/only the western scientists. Which is a problem we were discussing.

It's an incredibly uncontroversial claim. If your going to challenge it, you're going to have to do some work here. Otherwise it all feels a bit Russell's Teapot.

Imagination Theory wrote:By the way, how are you defining "Western"?

European/American I guess.
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#145  Postby willhud9 » May 30, 2013 10:04 am

Loren Michael wrote:

Mr. Samsa had a very nice rebuttal to a good deal of what you've said and you're leaving it unaddressed.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/socio ... l#p1699449

Now you're dropping in with videos without any kind of argument to supplement them. That's uncool. I think that if you were interested in having an understanding of this topic you'd be more engaged with what people are talking about and less inclined to offer simple video/opinion ("indeed...BULLSHIT") drive-bys.


Because Mr. Samsa wrote a lengthy expository of bullshit that I did not have the tenacity to address. Along the lines of "you are not black, you don't know what it is like" a bull shit argument, also racist, and also the problem with our society. So much for desiring to be color blind when someone is demanding a check on the basis of their race. :roll:

I have already said I am not against affirmative action and the video I linked above also explains that poor blacks, poor because of segregation and discrimination, were a key focus of the welfare reforms of the 1960's. The government HAS given them "reparations" yet there are groups of African Americans who are pushing for more. What do they mean by more? They mean individual checks to every single African American. That's not only unconstitutional *cough 14th amendment cough* but is also th most laughable thing I have ever met, and I am amazed that so many people, who are otherwise intelligent people, actually buy into the idea that the federal government should just write individuals multi-million dollar checks on the basis of skin color. :nono:

I was never interested in this discussion. It is a piss ass discussion that I am amazed people actually consider valid. :crazy:
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#146  Postby Imagination Theory » May 31, 2013 12:15 am

@Panderos. I wasn't challenging it. Please don't pretend like I was, that is being dishonest. I said "I don't know". I asked you how you knew that, as I wanted to have that information too, since as I said, I didn't know. Then you admitted to not knowing for sure later and I thought that was odd. Sorry I called you on your claim, I guess. Why are you acting like I'm attacking you, I just wanted your sources.

Now because of my question we both know a few of the reasons for why a lot of "modern" scientists were Westerners. Isn't that a good thing?

By the way, are you including all of Europe and all the Americas? Or just the south, or the south and the center of it for Europe and just the north for the Americas?


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За мертвый холод глаз,
За то, что мир жесток и груб,
За то, что Бог не спас.


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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#147  Postby Panderos » May 31, 2013 10:16 am

Imagination Theory wrote:I wasn't challenging it. Please don't pretend like I was, that is being dishonest. I said "I don't know". I asked you how you knew that, as I wanted to have that information too, since as I said, I didn't know. Sorry I called you on your claim, I guess. Why are you acting like I'm attacking you, I just wanted your sources.

Actually I genuinely thought you were challenging it. No matter, it was a misunderstanding. :cheers:

Imagination Theory wrote:Then you admitted to not knowing for sure later and I thought that was odd.

I was pretty sure, but you can never be 100%. There was always a chance I was about to be schooled.

Imagination Theory wrote:Now because of my question we both know a few of the reasons for why a lot of "modern" scientists were Westerners. Isn't that a good thing?

I was never under the impression any kind of 'western superiority' was at play if that's what you were thinking. It's just how things played out. Luck would be the simplest way to describe it really.

Imagination Theory wrote:By the way, are you including all of Europe and all the Americas? Or just the south, or the south and the center of it for Europe and just the north for the Americas?

I was including all of Europe and North America, although you could probably narrow that somewhat and the point would still be largely true (e.g. you won't lose much if you drop America from that until the 20th century).

Anyway..hopefully you can now see why I said that surreptitious original comment was misleading. [Yes, hard to believe how trivial point we are actually discussing here, but that's what happens on internet forums..]
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#148  Postby Mr.Samsa » Jun 01, 2013 9:33 am

willhud9 wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32hgzIGBa6g[/youtube]

I love Penn and Teller. Yep, reparations are indeed...BULLSHIT. :shh:


Ah yes, "Bullshit" is awesome. I love the episodes where they deny global warming and claim that second hand smoke is harmless.

willhud9 wrote:Because Mr. Samsa wrote a lengthy expository of bullshit that I did not have the tenacity to address.


I would have expected better from you, Will. I certainly didn't expect this anti-intellectualist nonsense of "It's too long and I couldn't be bothered reading it". If you didn't understand what I wrote, feel free to ask questions and learn. Don't shy away from information and knowledge because it's too difficult.

willhud9 wrote:Along the lines of "you are not black, you don't know what it is like" a bull shit argument, also racist, and also the problem with our society.


Fortunately, this is a huge strawman of my position. You can ignore contradicting evidence all you like, but don't misrepresent it so that you can rationalise it away as you being right.

willhud9 wrote:So much for desiring to be color blind when someone is demanding a check on the basis of their race. :roll:


Why would anyone want to be "colour blind"? Such a position is hugely problematic and it's closer to ignoring the problem rather than trying to fix it. Being "colour blind" isn't a good thing, nobody should be striving towards it.

willhud9 wrote:I have already said I am not against affirmative action and the video I linked above also explains that poor blacks, poor because of segregation and discrimination, were a key focus of the welfare reforms of the 1960's. The government HAS given them "reparations" yet there are groups of African Americans who are pushing for more.


Those bastards. Asking for equality when we've already put in the effort so that they can't be owned as slaves any more. What's next? I bet they'll ask for equal pay as well!

willhud9 wrote:What do they mean by more? They mean individual checks to every single African American. That's not only unconstitutional *cough 14th amendment cough* but is also th most laughable thing I have ever met, and I am amazed that so many people, who are otherwise intelligent people, actually buy into the idea that the federal government should just write individuals multi-million dollar checks on the basis of skin color. :nono:


So. Much. Straw.

On the bright side, I doubt any crow will come anywhere near this thread!

willhud9 wrote:I was never interested in this discussion. It is a piss ass discussion that I am amazed people actually consider valid. :crazy:


... :what:
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#149  Postby willhud9 » Jun 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:
willhud9 wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32hgzIGBa6g[/youtube]

I love Penn and Teller. Yep, reparations are indeed...BULLSHIT. :shh:


Ah yes, "Bullshit" is awesome. I love the episodes where they deny global warming and claim that second hand smoke is harmless.


They didn't deny global warming, the denied the doomsayers and politicization of it. As for second hand smoke being dangerous

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/look-it-way/200907/is-second-hand-smoke-really-dangerous

But I digress.

willhud9 wrote:Because Mr. Samsa wrote a lengthy expository of bullshit that I did not have the tenacity to address.


I would have expected better from you, Will. I certainly didn't expect this anti-intellectualist nonsense of "It's too long and I couldn't be bothered reading it". If you didn't understand what I wrote, feel free to ask questions and learn. Don't shy away from information and knowledge because it's too difficult.


No, I read it. And I found it too long to respond to, and I did not feel like it. Mainly because it was as I said, "because you are not black you cannot understand" bullshit.

Don't get me wrong, I generally agree with you Mr. Samsa on many things, and you are an intelligent person. I just happen to think your position on this is just plain wrong. :cheers:

willhud9 wrote:Along the lines of "you are not black, you don't know what it is like" a bull shit argument, also racist, and also the problem with our society.


Fortunately, this is a huge strawman of my position. You can ignore contradicting evidence all you like, but don't misrepresent it so that you can rationalise it away as you being right.


How is it a strawman then? You could perhaps expand upon that? Crying strawman does not make it so.

willhud9 wrote:So much for desiring to be color blind when someone is demanding a check on the basis of their race. :roll:


Why would anyone want to be "colour blind"? Such a position is hugely problematic and it's closer to ignoring the problem rather than trying to fix it. Being "colour blind" isn't a good thing, nobody should be striving towards it.


No it is not. When we stop looking at race as an issue because we realize we are all homo sapien sapiens, that is a goal worth of merit. I'm sorry that I don't identify myself as white. I refuse to. I hate it when people ask me for my ethnic background. Why? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MATTER.

willhud9 wrote:I have already said I am not against affirmative action and the video I linked above also explains that poor blacks, poor because of segregation and discrimination, were a key focus of the welfare reforms of the 1960's. The government HAS given them "reparations" yet there are groups of African Americans who are pushing for more.


Those bastards. Asking for equality when we've already put in the effort so that they can't be owned as slaves any more. What's next? I bet they'll ask for equal pay as well!


Except the part where I said I was supportive of those measures by the government. Go figure.

willhud9 wrote:What do they mean by more? They mean individual checks to every single African American. That's not only unconstitutional *cough 14th amendment cough* but is also th most laughable thing I have ever met, and I am amazed that so many people, who are otherwise intelligent people, actually buy into the idea that the federal government should just write individuals multi-million dollar checks on the basis of skin color. :nono:


So. Much. Straw.


Evidence that its a strawman? Again crying wolf does not actually make it true. :roll:

On the bright side, I doubt any crow will come anywhere near this thread!


I doubt crows would like to come to this thread regardless since its a manure field not a corn field.

willhud9 wrote:I was never interested in this discussion. It is a piss ass discussion that I am amazed people actually consider valid. :crazy:


... :what:


Yeah, it was an offhand comment I made in the other thread. I still find your position batshit crazy. Then again I am a small government "libertarian" and think giving privileges to certain citizens on the basis of race, gender, sexuality against my country's constitution. The sword cuts both ways. Again, see the 14th Amendment!
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#150  Postby Imagination Theory » Jun 02, 2013 12:46 am

@Panderos, okay. Sorry about that. The definition of "Western" I grew up with is only south Europe and North America, Oz, and New Zealand (and the islands that belong to them), so your list isn't very "Western". I think it would be more accurate to say most scientists were south and north European. Not that it really matters. :lol:

And no, of course I didn't think you would think it was because Europe was superior (though I do know 100's who do). It was for many different reasons and I think history should teach us, or teach us more of those reasons. Wouldn't you agree?


P.S

Is there a text for the P&J video? Thanks.
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За одиночество вдвоем,
И за тебя я пью, -
За ложь меня предавших губ,
За мертвый холод глаз,
За то, что мир жесток и груб,
За то, что Бог не спас.


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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#151  Postby Loren Michael » Jun 02, 2013 5:50 am

willhud9 wrote:
Mr.Samsa wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Because Mr. Samsa wrote a lengthy expository of bullshit that I did not have the tenacity to address.


I would have expected better from you, Will. I certainly didn't expect this anti-intellectualist nonsense of "It's too long and I couldn't be bothered reading it". If you didn't understand what I wrote, feel free to ask questions and learn. Don't shy away from information and knowledge because it's too difficult.


No, I read it. And I found it too long to respond to, and I did not feel like it. Mainly because it was as I said, "because you are not black you cannot understand" bullshit.

Don't get me wrong, I generally agree with you Mr. Samsa on many things, and you are an intelligent person. I just happen to think your position on this is just plain wrong. :cheers:


Are you able to elucidate why you think Mr. Samsa's position is "just plain wrong"?

willhud9 wrote:Along the lines of "you are not black, you don't know what it is like" a bull shit argument, also racist, and also the problem with our society.


Fortunately, this is a huge strawman of my position. You can ignore contradicting evidence all you like, but don't misrepresent it so that you can rationalise it away as you being right.


How is it a strawman then? You could perhaps expand upon that? Crying strawman does not make it so.


You said earlier that "I don't see it. A black guy and I, at least where I live, have the same chance of being hired if we have equal resumes" without any basis outside your personal anecdote as a non-black person. No studies posted, just pure assumption that your perspective is true. Have you actually studied the businesses in your area?

You might as well be saying that you believe global warming isn't happening because of the climate where you live.

You're using these anecdotes to support a position that isn't supported by evidence. This isn't reasonable.

willhud9 wrote:So much for desiring to be color blind when someone is demanding a check on the basis of their race. :roll:


Why would anyone want to be "colour blind"? Such a position is hugely problematic and it's closer to ignoring the problem rather than trying to fix it. Being "colour blind" isn't a good thing, nobody should be striving towards it.


No it is not. When we stop looking at race as an issue because we realize we are all homo sapien sapiens, that is a goal worth of merit. I'm sorry that I don't identify myself as white. I refuse to. I hate it when people ask me for my ethnic background. Why? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MATTER.


...except that it clearly does matter to quite a few people. You "not seeing race" may or may not be true; I would urge you to have an ounce of self-skepticism when making claims like this. Regardless, you abdicating from seeing race doesn't affect the fact that many people apparently haven't made that decision, and they haven't done so in a way that's problematic to the people who suffer the consequences of those assumptions of race.

Your colorblind perspective, assuming you're correct in your self-assessment, is useful for a society that doesn't see race and distribute opportunities based on racial perspectives. In a society that suffers from massive problems along racial lines, it means you fail to see the problems that exist and fail to address them in any appreciable way.
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#152  Postby Panderos » Jun 02, 2013 11:39 am

Imagination Theory wrote:@Panderos, okay. Sorry about that. The definition of "Western" I grew up with is only south Europe and North America, Oz, and New Zealand (and the islands that belong to them), so your list isn't very "Western". I think it would be more accurate to say most scientists were south and north European. Not that it really matters. :lol:

Ah well that explains some confusion. Not including Northern Europe in western is a new one to me! I guess Oz and NZ would be included as western today, that's true, although of course during the period I was referring to there weren't many scientists from those places, probably because they were so new, like the US.

Imagination Theory wrote:And no, of course I didn't think you would think it was because Europe was superior (though I do know 100's who do). It was for many different reasons and I think history should teach us, or teach us more of those reasons. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm all for more and better teaching of history in general. Learning some history of science or world history will give people the answers to these questions. Or at least it'd be a good (and necessary) start. Beyond that you'd have to ask a) Why did the scientific revolution happen in Europe and b) Why was it men who dominated. I'm sure these questions are already addressed in various classes, although probably at university not school.
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#153  Postby Agrippina » Jun 02, 2013 2:14 pm

Speaking of reparations to people "wronged," I've been helping with formatting some documents for people working on our planned education policies, and I came across these excerpts from the policy of the Nationalist Party's education plan for the period after their 1948 takeover of SA's government, and which was the policy until the ANC took over in 1994.

"Article1: We believe that the … education of the children of white parents should occur on the basis of the ... world-view of the parents. For Afrikaans-speaking children this means that they must be educated on the basis of the Christian-National world-view of our nation. In this … world-view, the Christian basis ... is grounded on the Holy Scriptures and expressed in the creeds of our three Afrikaans Churches. By the national principle we understand love for everything that is our own …
… the National principles must always be under guidance of the Christian principle ...
Article 2: In order to let the light of the revelation of God which is contained in the Scriptures shine in the school, we believe that religious instruction ... should be the key subject. It must determine the spirit and direction of all the other subjects ...
Article 3: By national education we understand teaching in which the national principle of love for one's own may effectively become valid in ... all activities ... so that the child shall be led ... with pride in his spiritual-cultural heritage into the spiritual-cultural possession of the nation.
Article 4: … through the Fall, sin has penetrated by means of heredity to later generations and that the child as the
object of ... education is therefore a sinful … being.
… the act of teaching must treat a child of believing Christian parents as a believer and not as a heathen ...
… apart from the common characteristics that one child shares with [another] ... there are also the national characteristics that must be known and repeated.
Article 5: The essence ... of the process of education … is … that the younger generation should inherit what is good ... in the cultural possession of the nation ... and that they develop it further ...
Article 6: … The instruction in [religion] ... must not be hermetically sealed off from the other school activities, but ... must form an organic whole with them …
… the mother-tongue is the basis of all education … [and] it must ... be the only medium in the teaching of all the other subjects.
… every pupil must be formed into a Christian and national citizen of our country ... the teaching of the subject CIVICS must be such that it will breed Christian and National citizens ...
… every nation is rooted in its own soil which is allotted to it by the Creator. Every citizen ... must have a sound knowledge of our land ... and this knowledge MUST be communicated in such a way that the pupil will love our own soil, also in … contrast with other countries.
… history must be taught [in such a way as to be] seen as the fulfillment of God's decree for ... humanity ... We believe that God has willed separate nations and peoples, and has given each separate nation ... its particular vocation and task and gifts … and that the patriotic ... history of the nation is the great means of cultivating love of one's own.
Article 7: … the aim of all discipline should be the Christian and National formation of ... the child, the welfare of the community ... the glory of God,
Article 8: … No Mixed Schools [segregation of Afrikaans and English],
.… Home, School and Church ... they must complement one another so that each one … gets his rightful share in the forming of the Child.
… education … is the duty ... of the parents, and they in collaboration with the church and the state must therefore decide on the spirit and direction of ... education ... likewise [for] the church ... [but] the state may not decide on the spirit and direction of the school, so long as ... it is not damaging ... to the state ...
Article 9: … the teacher must act as a substitute for the parent ... Our highest demand on the teacher therefore is that he should be a man of Christian life and world-view, without which he is nothing less to us than the most deadly danger ... We wish ... to see the institutions for the training of our teachers as Christian and National institutions.
Article 10: … [this] world-view is equally valid for nursery schools ...
Article 11: … our higher education should have the same basis and purpose as our primary and secondary … we desire [that] ... instruction and practice in the secular sciences must proceed from the Christian ... world-view ... [it must] never [be] reconciliatory ... the professors and lecturers must be convinced Christian and National scientists.
Article 12: [this] world-view is applicable to Technical Colleges .... and schools for the special training of ... the physically and menially defective.
Article 13: With regard to white adults, … such teaching must be given with due respect for the principle of cultural separation...
Article 14: ... Coloured teaching must be seen as a part of the vocation and task of the Afrikaner, to Christianise the non-white races of our fatherland. We accept the principle of the trusteeship of the white man, that is, of the Afrikaner over the non-white. This trusteeship lays upon the Afrikaner the sacred obligation to sec to it that the coloured man is educated according to the Christian and National principles. With regard to the Christian principles, the same remarks are applicable, mutatis mutandis, which we made earlier. We believe that only when the coloured man has been Christianised ... will he be truly happy ... and .... secure against all kinds of foreign ideologies which, promise him a sham happiness...
We believe that he can be made race-conscious if the principle of … apartheid is strictly applied in education ... it is necessary to emphasise the principle of mother-tongue as the medium of education in the case of the coloured ... The financing of coloured education must be placed on such a basis that it does not occur at the cost of white education.
Article 15:. [similar to the above concerning the Bantu, emphasising inequality and cultural inferiority, positing the Boer (Afrikaner) as the senior white trustee".]


:roll:
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#154  Postby aNameWithinaName » Jul 23, 2013 1:58 am

I think what annoys me most about this topic is that people
assume any wrong doing or discrimination stopped with slavery ended.
As if we didn't have people actively holding back blacks in this country.
As if there aren't black people alive NOW who were discriminated against
and literally were treated like second class citizens.

One question I have to ask is why is it okay to pay reparations out to
Japanese and other Asian Americans who were put experienced discrimination
in World War II but it's a huge problem once we start talking about the issues
black Americans faced only a few decades ago ?
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Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#155  Postby McNulty » Jan 01, 2014 5:07 am

willhud9 wrote:
Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


Agreed.

Utterly absurd to think that descendants should be compensated.

Life begins at birth, and if people in the past were exploited then that's just history, and they should have got their societies in order.
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McNulty
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