Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

Reparations?

Discussions about society in general and social activity.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#1  Postby willhud9 » Apr 12, 2013 7:22 pm


!
GENERAL MODNOTE
Split out from the topic, Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials.

The_Metatron

Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: William
Posts: 19349
Age: 29
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#2  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 13, 2013 8:09 pm

willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#3  Postby willhud9 » Apr 13, 2013 11:22 pm

Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


Seriously hope this is a troll comment because it reeks of stupidity. Just saying. My family never once owned slaves. My family were poor farmers. Why the hell should I pay someone with my tax dollars for an event that happened 200 years ago. I am talking about monetary compensation i.e. blacks get paid by the government because their family was slaves. I don't care about affirmative action or enforcing the 14th amendment.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: William
Posts: 19349
Age: 29
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#4  Postby ramseyoptom » Apr 13, 2013 11:46 pm

Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


And who pays the compensation?

The US government, who after the War of Independence kept them in slavery. The UK government for supporting the Triangular Trade or should the UK be let off scot free as it was at least the first European country to abolish slavery and then use to power of its navy to get others to follow suite ? Or should we ask various African governments to contribute as their predecessors sold their compatriots into slavery?And do we then ask the Portuguese and Spanish governments to sling a few dollars in as they started the whole thing off in exporting slaves to the America, and again how much should the Arabs sling in the pot as they were selling slaves from the East African coast far earlier than the Europeans.

And this begs the question of how far do you go back, can the UK government claim compensation of the Italians for the Anglo-Saxons sold into slavery, or may be we should have a go at a couple of Scandinavian countries like Norway and Denmark for what the Vikings did?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
ramseyoptom
 
Name: Ian
Posts: 1693
Age: 70
Male

Country: Isle of Man
Isle of Man (im)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#5  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 14, 2013 2:01 am

willhud9 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


Seriously hope this is a troll comment because it reeks of stupidity. Just saying. My family never once owned slaves. My family were poor farmers. Why the hell should I pay someone with my tax dollars for an event that happened 200 years ago. I am talking about monetary compensation i.e. blacks get paid by the government because their family was slaves. I don't care about affirmative action or enforcing the 14th amendment.


I don't see what your family owning or not owning slaves has to do with anything. They contribute to the government, and the government is the responsible entity. It's the same as if someone is wrongfully convicted by my government. I didn't wrongfully convict that person. If that person gets compensation though, it comes from my government and, oops, my pocket I guess. What's your problem with that?

You should pay for that reason, and because of the aforementioned slavery, then apartheid, etc.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#6  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 14, 2013 2:11 am

ramseyoptom wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


And who pays the compensation?

The US government, who after the War of Independence kept them in slavery. The UK government for supporting the Triangular Trade or should the UK be let off scot free as it was at least the first European country to abolish slavery and then use to power of its navy to get others to follow suite ? Or should we ask various African governments to contribute as their predecessors sold their compatriots into slavery?And do we then ask the Portuguese and Spanish governments to sling a few dollars in as they started the whole thing off in exporting slaves to the America, and again how much should the Arabs sling in the pot as they were selling slaves from the East African coast far earlier than the Europeans.

And this begs the question of how far do you go back, can the UK government claim compensation of the Italians for the Anglo-Saxons sold into slavery, or may be we should have a go at a couple of Scandinavian countries like Norway and Denmark for what the Vikings did?


This logic could be applied to any injustice. There's a mass shooting first at home and then at a school. Do we blame the young male responsible, or do we blame society for not noticing, or do we blame the NRA, or do we blame his abusive parents (and if so do we blame their abusive parents as well), or his bullying classmates, or...

There's some merit I think in saying that lots of entities are ultimately or fundamentally responsible. I think that merit gets pared away when it comes to the desire for expediency and the rough workings of most modern day justice apparatuses.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#7  Postby willhud9 » Apr 14, 2013 2:41 am

Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


Seriously hope this is a troll comment because it reeks of stupidity. Just saying. My family never once owned slaves. My family were poor farmers. Why the hell should I pay someone with my tax dollars for an event that happened 200 years ago. I am talking about monetary compensation i.e. blacks get paid by the government because their family was slaves. I don't care about affirmative action or enforcing the 14th amendment.


I don't see what your family owning or not owning slaves has to do with anything. They contribute to the government, and the government is the responsible entity. It's the same as if someone is wrongfully convicted by my government. I didn't wrongfully convict that person. If that person gets compensation though, it comes from my government and, oops, my pocket I guess. What's your problem with that?

You should pay for that reason, and because of the aforementioned slavery, then apartheid, etc.


Because it's my fucking tax dollars. Does not matter if it was my government which did it. That's the fault of the government, not the individual people who make up the government. Not all African Americans have ancestors that were subject to segregation or even slavery for that matter. How does the government tell which African Americans get compensation. How much compensation? Why do they get selective monetary treatment when there are literally millions of homeless and impoverished people. The entire concept is the most ludicrous concept. It would be the most complicated mess to initiate and it is unnecessary.

Should we give all women money for having a vagina instead of a penis? Because we all know 100 years ago they fought for suffrage. If you answer yes to that, well then I think this train of thought is over. :crazy:
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: William
Posts: 19349
Age: 29
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#8  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 14, 2013 2:58 am

willhud9 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:

African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


Seriously hope this is a troll comment because it reeks of stupidity. Just saying. My family never once owned slaves. My family were poor farmers. Why the hell should I pay someone with my tax dollars for an event that happened 200 years ago. I am talking about monetary compensation i.e. blacks get paid by the government because their family was slaves. I don't care about affirmative action or enforcing the 14th amendment.


I don't see what your family owning or not owning slaves has to do with anything. They contribute to the government, and the government is the responsible entity. It's the same as if someone is wrongfully convicted by my government. I didn't wrongfully convict that person. If that person gets compensation though, it comes from my government and, oops, my pocket I guess. What's your problem with that?

You should pay for that reason, and because of the aforementioned slavery, then apartheid, etc.


Because it's my fucking tax dollars. Does not matter if it was my government which did it. That's the fault of the government, not the individual people who make up the government.


If someone is wrongfully convicted by your government, you think they should get nothing, because it's your tax dollars?

Not all African Americans have ancestors that were subject to segregation or even slavery for that matter. How does the government tell which African Americans get compensation. How much compensation? Why do they get selective monetary treatment when there are literally millions of homeless and impoverished people. The entire concept is the most ludicrous concept. It would be the most complicated mess to initiate and it is unnecessary.

Should we give all women money for having a vagina instead of a penis? Because we all know 100 years ago they fought for suffrage. If you answer yes to that, well then I think this train of thought is over. :crazy:


I don't think a lack of suffrage is quite on the same level as slavery. Do you? The treatment of women throughout history is terrible, and I think that societies trying to eradicate prejudice and social inequality should address that treatment and history's echoes in the present. I think that if one's interested in reparations for atrocities though, it's not hypocritical to pick a few extreme ones for one set of treatments, and less extreme ones for a different set of treatments.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#9  Postby willhud9 » Apr 14, 2013 3:02 am

Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:

Seriously hope this is a troll comment because it reeks of stupidity. Just saying. My family never once owned slaves. My family were poor farmers. Why the hell should I pay someone with my tax dollars for an event that happened 200 years ago. I am talking about monetary compensation i.e. blacks get paid by the government because their family was slaves. I don't care about affirmative action or enforcing the 14th amendment.


I don't see what your family owning or not owning slaves has to do with anything. They contribute to the government, and the government is the responsible entity. It's the same as if someone is wrongfully convicted by my government. I didn't wrongfully convict that person. If that person gets compensation though, it comes from my government and, oops, my pocket I guess. What's your problem with that?

You should pay for that reason, and because of the aforementioned slavery, then apartheid, etc.


Because it's my fucking tax dollars. Does not matter if it was my government which did it. That's the fault of the government, not the individual people who make up the government.


If someone is wrongfully convicted by your government, you think they should get nothing, because it's your tax dollars?


If someone is wrongfully convicted by my government in the present then its a different scenario. But for events that happened generations ago. No.

Not all African Americans have ancestors that were subject to segregation or even slavery for that matter. How does the government tell which African Americans get compensation. How much compensation? Why do they get selective monetary treatment when there are literally millions of homeless and impoverished people. The entire concept is the most ludicrous concept. It would be the most complicated mess to initiate and it is unnecessary.

Should we give all women money for having a vagina instead of a penis? Because we all know 100 years ago they fought for suffrage. If you answer yes to that, well then I think this train of thought is over. :crazy:


I don't think a lack of suffrage is quite on the same level as slavery. Do you? The treatment of women throughout history is terrible, and I think that societies trying to eradicate prejudice and social inequality should address that treatment and history's echoes in the present. I think that if one's interested in reparations for atrocities though, it's not hypocritical to pick a few extreme ones for one set of treatments, and less extreme ones for a different set of treatments.


Yeah treatment comes in the form of legal protections. Not monetary compensation.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: William
Posts: 19349
Age: 29
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#10  Postby ramseyoptom » Apr 14, 2013 10:25 am

Loren Michael wrote:
ramseyoptom wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


And who pays the compensation?

The US government, who after the War of Independence kept them in slavery. The UK government for supporting the Triangular Trade or should the UK be let off scot free as it was at least the first European country to abolish slavery and then use to power of its navy to get others to follow suite ? Or should we ask various African governments to contribute as their predecessors sold their compatriots into slavery?And do we then ask the Portuguese and Spanish governments to sling a few dollars in as they started the whole thing off in exporting slaves to the America, and again how much should the Arabs sling in the pot as they were selling slaves from the East African coast far earlier than the Europeans.

And this begs the question of how far do you go back, can the UK government claim compensation of the Italians for the Anglo-Saxons sold into slavery, or may be we should have a go at a couple of Scandinavian countries like Norway and Denmark for what the Vikings did?


This logic could be applied to any injustice. There's a mass shooting first at home and then at a school. Do we blame the young male responsible, or do we blame society for not noticing, or do we blame the NRA, or do we blame his abusive parents (and if so do we blame their abusive parents as well), or his bullying classmates, or...

There's some merit I think in saying that lots of entities are ultimately or fundamentally responsible. I think that merit gets pared away when it comes to the desire for expediency and the rough workings of most modern day justice apparatuses.


My logic is NOT to apply the sins of the great-great-great-great grandparents to their current offspring. In a current injustice then fine hold the perpetrators to account, and sue. All you are doing by blaming the great-great -great grand children for the sins of their forebears is perpetuating the stupid ideas that have lead in many cases to current conflicts in the likes of Ireland (blaming a lot of the troubles on Cromwell) the Balkans (historical ill-feeling between the Serbs and the Croats). Or in the case of many dictatorships killing the off-spring and relatives of someone that is disliked unto the seventh generation.

We cannot undo the mistakes of the past we can try and make sure they will not happen again, but to ask a current generation to pay (in what ever form) for the sins of 300 years ago is frankly stupid as all it will do (and see Willhud's post) is breed resentment among the current generation who have nothing to do with the initial problem, and not even the same cultural outlook as the offending generation, and will in all probability is perpetuate and reinforce the problem.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
ramseyoptom
 
Name: Ian
Posts: 1693
Age: 70
Male

Country: Isle of Man
Isle of Man (im)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#11  Postby MrFungus420 » Apr 15, 2013 5:16 am

Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


You're right. They do deserve better.

They deserve better than being told that they can't succeed unless they are given special consideration by their white "betters".
Atheism alone is no more a religion than health is a disease. One may as well argue over which brand of car pedestrians drive.
- AronRa
MrFungus420
 
Posts: 3914

Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#12  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 15, 2013 5:24 am

willhud9 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:

I don't see what your family owning or not owning slaves has to do with anything. They contribute to the government, and the government is the responsible entity. It's the same as if someone is wrongfully convicted by my government. I didn't wrongfully convict that person. If that person gets compensation though, it comes from my government and, oops, my pocket I guess. What's your problem with that?

You should pay for that reason, and because of the aforementioned slavery, then apartheid, etc.


Because it's my fucking tax dollars. Does not matter if it was my government which did it. That's the fault of the government, not the individual people who make up the government.


If someone is wrongfully convicted by your government, you think they should get nothing, because it's your tax dollars?


If someone is wrongfully convicted by my government in the present then its a different scenario. But for events that happened generations ago. No.


The consequences of those events in the past are still occuring now. You're right that the reparations should have happened a long time ago. They didn't. The governmen is still here and the decendents are still here, suffering the consequences of the same government.

Not all African Americans have ancestors that were subject to segregation or even slavery for that matter. How does the government tell which African Americans get compensation. How much compensation? Why do they get selective monetary treatment when there are literally millions of homeless and impoverished people. The entire concept is the most ludicrous concept. It would be the most complicated mess to initiate and it is unnecessary.

Should we give all women money for having a vagina instead of a penis? Because we all know 100 years ago they fought for suffrage. If you answer yes to that, well then I think this train of thought is over. :crazy:


I don't think a lack of suffrage is quite on the same level as slavery. Do you? The treatment of women throughout history is terrible, and I think that societies trying to eradicate prejudice and social inequality should address that treatment and history's echoes in the present. I think that if one's interested in reparations for atrocities though, it's not hypocritical to pick a few extreme ones for one set of treatments, and less extreme ones for a different set of treatments.


Yeah treatment comes in the form of legal protections. Not monetary compensation.


The end of slavery is all the victims of slavery get as compensation? The end of de jure racist policies is all they get as compensation?

"I stopped hitting you. Why are you still complaining?"
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#13  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 15, 2013 5:32 am

ramseyoptom wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
ramseyoptom wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:

African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


And who pays the compensation?

The US government, who after the War of Independence kept them in slavery. The UK government for supporting the Triangular Trade or should the UK be let off scot free as it was at least the first European country to abolish slavery and then use to power of its navy to get others to follow suite ? Or should we ask various African governments to contribute as their predecessors sold their compatriots into slavery?And do we then ask the Portuguese and Spanish governments to sling a few dollars in as they started the whole thing off in exporting slaves to the America, and again how much should the Arabs sling in the pot as they were selling slaves from the East African coast far earlier than the Europeans.

And this begs the question of how far do you go back, can the UK government claim compensation of the Italians for the Anglo-Saxons sold into slavery, or may be we should have a go at a couple of Scandinavian countries like Norway and Denmark for what the Vikings did?


This logic could be applied to any injustice. There's a mass shooting first at home and then at a school. Do we blame the young male responsible, or do we blame society for not noticing, or do we blame the NRA, or do we blame his abusive parents (and if so do we blame their abusive parents as well), or his bullying classmates, or...

There's some merit I think in saying that lots of entities are ultimately or fundamentally responsible. I think that merit gets pared away when it comes to the desire for expediency and the rough workings of most modern day justice apparatuses.


My logic is NOT to apply the sins of the great-great-great-great grandparents to their current offspring. In a current injustice then fine hold the perpetrators to account, and sue. All you are doing by blaming the great-great -great grand children for the sins of their forebears is perpetuating the stupid ideas that have lead in many cases to current conflicts in the likes of Ireland (blaming a lot of the troubles on Cromwell) the Balkans (historical ill-feeling between the Serbs and the Croats). Or in the case of many dictatorships killing the off-spring and relatives of someone that is disliked unto the seventh generation.

We cannot undo the mistakes of the past we can try and make sure they will not happen again, but to ask a current generation to pay (in what ever form) for the sins of 300 years ago is frankly stupid as all it will do (and see Willhud's post) is breed resentment among the current generation who have nothing to do with the initial problem, and not even the same cultural outlook as the offending generation, and will in all probability is perpetuate and reinforce the problem.


Reparations are punishment for the people who wronged? No, thy're compensation for the people who were wronged.

Everything following "all it will..." is idiotic. Wealth transfers transfer wealth. People who receive benefits receive benefits. That's a lot for something to do, and you somehow forgot all about that.

Being afraid of the consequences of resentment isn't a great excuse for delaying or blocking justice.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#14  Postby Sovereign » Apr 15, 2013 5:33 am

MrFungus420 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


You're right. They do deserve better.

They deserve better than being told that they can't succeed unless they are given special consideration by their white "betters".


You can't be serious? There is a lot to be done and a simple "change in how we say things" isn't going to change that.
Sovereign
 
Posts: 2989
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#15  Postby Loren Michael » Apr 15, 2013 5:34 am

MrFungus420 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


You're right. They do deserve better.

They deserve better than being told that they can't succeed unless they are given special consideration by their white "betters".


That's a great argument against welfare generally. "We don't need to insult the poor with welfare."

EDIT: and what Sovereign said.
Image
User avatar
Loren Michael
 
Name: Loren Michael
Posts: 7411

Country: China
China (cn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#16  Postby Mr.Samsa » Apr 15, 2013 5:52 am

willhud9 wrote:
Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


Will, I think you're missing the point that the problems from history aren't a historical problem. That is, they were the cause of the current problems. We can say, "It's not my problem, they can figure it out for themselves" but most people want (or at least vote with the assumption of) a society that aims at giving everyone equal opportunities.

Nobody is being "punished" for supposed sins of their ancestors - everyone is taxed with the intention of improving the society we live in. Importantly, having a fair and equal society not only helps minorities, but it helps you as well.

MrFungus420 wrote:
You're right. They do deserve better.

They deserve better than being told that they can't succeed unless they are given special consideration by their white "betters".


If it were simply a case of them being "told" that they can't succeed without explicit measures to even the playing field then you might be right. But that's obviously not the case. The fact is that if you take away affirmative action, the world wouldn't suddenly turn into a magical fairytale where people are judged on their merits and discrimination suddenly disappears. Instead we'd just step back in time a few decades where people freely chose white people over black people when hiring new employees. This isn't just a hypothetical problem or an exaggeration - when given the choice, people will consistently and significantly discriminate against black people (and even people with black sounding names).

As an analogy, you're viewing a world where people are playing a game at a fairground stall and some people are being allowed to move closer to the target they are trying to hit with the water gun. This would be insulting, if the game was fair. However, if the game was set up so that the chances of winning dropped from 80% to 20% when a certain kind of person tried to play the game, then it would only be fair to give them "advantages" so that they can try to reach an equal playing field to everyone else.

And now, imagine that instead of winning a goldfish or a crappy stuffed toy, they were competing for their income, healthcare, and general well-being. Not only would it be ridiculous to claim that it's "insulting" to try to even the odds of a rigged game so that some people weren't being completely ripped off, it would frankly be sickening and disgusting. Welcome to the real world.
Image
Mr.Samsa
 
Posts: 11370
Age: 35

Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#17  Postby Mayak » Apr 23, 2013 1:15 am

People significantly discriminate over everything. Race, age, names, looks, clothes, religion, experience, use of public transportation, location, political stance, sex, mental health history, you name it and somebody will use it against you. Maybe we should have a system where a 3rd party (government?) does a fair, non-biased review for a company and then recommends the best candidate?
Mayak
 
Posts: 1172

Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#18  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Apr 23, 2013 1:24 am

Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


I think money would be better spent on programs improving conditions and providing opportunities in all poverty stricken areas rather than doling it out based on skin color.
"Things don't need to be true, as long as they are believed" - Alexander Nix, CEO Cambridge Analytica
User avatar
CdesignProponentsist
 
Posts: 12686
Age: 53
Male

Country: California
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Does society owe any debts to the descendants of people wronged?

#19  Postby Macdoc » Apr 23, 2013 1:31 am

Will
Seriously hope this is a troll comment because it reeks of stupidity. Just saying. My family never once owned slaves. My family were poor farmers. Why the hell should I pay someone with my tax dollars for an event that happened 200 years ago. I am talking about monetary compensation i.e. blacks get paid by the government because their family was slaves. I don't care about affirmative action or enforcing the 14th amendment.


Take your first sentence and take a seriously long look in the mirror ....rarely have seen such a thoughtless comment.

and then in addition you are about the 2nd but not the 14th..... :nono:

Yes - mores in a modern democratic society in general suggest that trying and address wrongs committed against any sub-group of it's citizens either by way of apology or by way of compensation or both is beneficial to all concerned.

YOU Will benefitted from the enslavement and indentured work of thousands from Chinese building the railways to slave labour building the Whitehouse

The White House's History Of Slave Labor - CBS News
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-4661606.html - Cached
Feb 11, 2009 – CBS Evening News: The White House's History Of Slave Labor - CBS Evening News: Records Show Slaves Helped Build The Presidential .


Your society is very wealthy in real terms and can afford as other societies have to redress pasty grievances against groups and make the very tarnished American Dream accessible to all.....which it is not and has not been for a long time.

Inequality in America is a national shame...
Wealth inequality: Your money, your life | The Economist
http://www.economist.com/.../democracyi ... wealth-i... - Cached
Mar 23, 2013 – Mar 14th 2013, 14:05 by S.M. | NEW YORK ... Income inequality in America is at levels not seen since the 1920s, and the story is getting a lot of ...


..as is Canada's treatment of it's aboriginals ( other groups like the Chinese that helped build the railway have gotten their apology and compensation. )

Your ethics indicated by your post are far out of step with the mores of a egalitarian society. With comments like yours you just contribute to the ongoing image of the Ugly American.
Suggest you read the book by the same name and see why your nation nation has earned the sobriquet. :coffee:
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17156
Age: 73
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Hiroshima & Nagasaki 65 year memorials

#20  Postby MrFungus420 » Apr 23, 2013 1:58 am

Sovereign wrote:
MrFungus420 wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Yay for this thread being revived :scratch:

Never to late for people to try to force their own morality of history into the present. I find it just as laughable as the people who demand the african american community get compensation because there ancestors were slaves. :crazy:


African Americans getting compensation would be fair, given how they started off under slavery, then apartheid, and then were finally normalized, except for all the discrimination that still exists. Who sounds more employable, Sarah or Shaniqua? Even now, whites in America have been complaining about reverse racism in affirmative action. Fuck them and fuck that. Black people deserve better and have deserved better.


You're right. They do deserve better.

They deserve better than being told that they can't succeed unless they are given special consideration by their white "betters".


You can't be serious?


Yes, I am serious.

Shall I now give you the anecdotes about more qualified people not getting a job because it had to go to a minority? Or can we agree that anecdotes don't carry much weight and can be used by both sides?

Sovereign wrote:There is a lot to be done and a simple "change in how we say things" isn't going to change that.


Neither is more racism.
Atheism alone is no more a religion than health is a disease. One may as well argue over which brand of car pedestrians drive.
- AronRa
MrFungus420
 
Posts: 3914

Print view this post

Next

Return to Sociology

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest

cron