Yep, as the title says, this is a thread about Circumcision.

Feel free to post your arguments for it, or against it, here. (Either gender) Though something tells me no one here will actually support female circumcision. Or so I hope...If this is in the wrong section, please move it!

I don't see why anyone should mess with what nature has decided we should look like.

Sure there can be medical problems that require a little intervention, but short of that...

No matter which sex we're talking about, I think circumcision is just plain vicious. To mutilate a child in such a way is beyond comprehension. I feel very lucky for being born in a country where circumcision exists only as a medical procedure, performed almost exclusively for medical reasons. Thank you very much, but I'm grateful for having all the body parts I should have.

Just... vicious!

There are medical reasons which I think are the only valid reasons for being circumcised. When performed for religious reasons it seems all to similar to unnecessary cosmetic surgery...

Its the unnecessary infliction of pain on a helpless baby that is the worst aspect for me, although the lack of choice is a very very close second. I can't even bear to see tiny girls with pierced ears, I don't care if its cultural or a parent just likes it, they're inflicting pain on a baby to make it more attractive (in their opinion). Wrong, just wrong.

Dalmat wrote:No matter which sex we're talking about, I think circumcision is just plain vicious. To mutilate a child in such a way is beyond comprehension. I feel very lucky for being born in a country where circumcision exists only as a medical procedure, performed almost exclusively for medical reasons. Thank you very much, but I'm grateful for having all the body parts I should have.

Just... vicious!

Agreed. If people are that keen to have it (other than medical necessity obv) then why not wait til they are 16, 18 or whatever and let them make the decision themselves. Imposing that on a child is a form of abuse, surely - they have no choice in the matter. If it was for anything other than religion then there would be an uproar, surely!

Odysseus wrote:If it was for anything other than religion then there would be an uproar, surely!

Well, that's the most disturbing thing about religion; it makes normal people think it's ok to do hideous things.

Dalmat wrote:

Odysseus wrote:If it was for anything other than religion then there would be an uproar, surely!

Well, that's the most disturbing thing about religion; it makes normal people think it's ok to do hideous things.

Very true. I guess change would have to occur from within rather than from without, otherwise we'd fall victim to charges of cultural imperialism or something similar....

If it's yours, and you're a competent adult, hack it about as you please.

If it isn't, it's not your business. End of.

If it was for anything other than religion then there would be an uproar, surely!

Well, that's the most disturbing thing about religion; it makes normal people think it's ok to do hideous things.

I'd like to copy the post I made at Rationalia:


This is a practice that really needs to be stopped. I'm not talking about involuntary female circumcision although it's horrible in its own right. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the industrialized world who thinks involuntary female circumcision is an acceptable practice. I'm talking about involuntary male circumcision. I find it hard to believe that such a barbaric ritual is so common in North America. I have trouble understanding why more people aren't upset with this. We're talking about mutilating someone's body without his consent. We're talking about an irreversible change in someone's appearance as well as a reduction in sensitivity in one area on a man's body that he most certainly wants to be sensitive.

I've heard that circumcision can provide mild protection against certain STDs. I find it appalling that this argument is even used. To justify such a horrible act with something as spurious as "you have a reduced chance of contracting AIDS" is beyond me. I mean, ffs, why don't just we cut children's fingertips off so they can't pick their noses? This is skirting around the issue, though. This is just an ad hoc justification for the real reason. We all know exactly why this is so widely practiced. It's a religious ceremony endorsed by the bible and put into effect so children will be less tempted to pleasure themselves.

It makes me so angry that my parents decided to mutilate my body without my permission. It's also really upsetting to know that I can never truly reverse the change. There are surgeries that I can undergo but they can't actually restore my foreskin. I would just be mutilating it further to create something that somewhat resembled a foreskin. I would really like to get this law change. I expect I would receive a lot of resistance from religious groups. I don't even know where to begin, either. It seems like this isn't even on the agenda. There are other issues, like the legalization of marijuana, which get way more attention and although I agree it should be legalized, not being able to take a drug pales in comparison to an irreversible change to someone's body made without his consent.

By the way, I don't want to trivialize the horrors of female circumcision. It's actually much worse than male circumcision, there's no doubt about that. But like I said, everyone in the industrialized world is in agreement that it needs to be stopped. It seems like no one is even paying attention to male circumcision and indeed, it's standard practice at many medical institutions.

If for medical reasons, an unqualified yes, and may I add several gold stars to that yes.

Otherwise, no.

Hey Zeus! wrote:I find it hard to believe that such a barbaric ritual is so common in North America.

I find it disgusting and absolutely horrifying. I live in a society where circumcision is extremely, extremely rare (no cultural induced circumcision and reasonable healthcare prevents the most of other conditions). Watching US movies and sitcoms I was always perplexed by the comments on the subject. Not being circumcised was generally mocked with. I couldn't (I still can't) understand how such a prosperous country could sink so low in such a basic issue as protecting children.

I've heard that circumcision can provide mild protection against certain STDs. I find it appalling that this argument is even used. To justify such a horrible act with something as spurious as "you have a reduced chance of contracting AIDS" is beyond me. I mean, ffs, why don't just we cut children's fingertips off so they can't pick their noses?

True, cutting the penis off all together would probably lead to eradication of many STDs. That reasoning is just idiotic.

It makes me so angry that my parents decided to mutilate my body without my permission. It's also really upsetting to know that I can never truly reverse the change. There are surgeries that I can undergo but they can't actually restore my foreskin. I would just be mutilating it further to create something that somewhat resembled a foreskin.

I completely understand you. The thought that my parents would purposely harm me and cut me up in such a way, marking me for the rest of my life... that just sickens me and makes me want to just go and curl up somewhere. I don't understand the mental state of parents who at some point say "it's ok, take my baby and cut him". No reason, no purpose, no cause. It's just horrible.

There seems to be two major sub-topics to this discussion:

1. The risk analysis of circumcision, and 2. The question of informed consent.

Just about all of the information I have found on the risk analysis of circumcision hinge on sexual activity. This is, therefore, an irrelevant point on which to base a decision on circumcision of any human that is not sexually active. Say, infants and children.

It then comes down to the question of informed consent. There is some disparity between the legally defined age of consent and the age of sexual maturity. I don't know if that matters much, though.

As an adult, no person on the planet has the authority to direct any medical procedure be done on me. My [i]self[/] is inviolable. A question I would like to see answered by anyone that is pro-circumcision is: Why do children, our most vulnerable group, not enjoy that same right? Or, put as I would rather ask it: What the fuck gives anyone the right to remove bits of another human without their consent?

bookmarking. Please carry on.

Hey Zeus! wrote:It makes me so angry that my parents decided to mutilate my body without my permission.

That's exactly what I think. (Well, I'm not angry because I can remember a time when I wasn't circumcised... but that's not the point.) I'm the only Human being entitled to deciding what my body should look like, within the limits of what is healthy.

As for men who need to cut bits off their wives and daughters in order to feel more manly, well... they are just a bunch of sad and pathetic individuals. They are an insult to manhood. Women are not a thread. They are our fellow Humans.

Dalmat wrote:I completely understand you. The thought that my parents would purposely harm me and cut me up in such a way, marking me for the rest of my life... that just sickens me and makes me want to just go and curl up somewhere. I don't understand the mental state of parents who at some point say "it's ok, take my baby and cut him". No reason, no purpose, no cause. It's just horrible.

It happened to me and strangely I don't have such strong feelings about it. But I completely agree with you. It is horrible, when I think about it.

This is mostly a thread for me to learn why on earth we do it? I've always wondered how it ever caught on? What would their reasoning be? I'm puzzled.

My parents said they did it to me so that i looked the same as my dad (sorry if that's TMI). Personally I think that's a crappy reason and I would never do that to my child. If a young male is confused as to why he may look different than his fater, i think a simple explanation is a better option than mutiliation.

From a religious stand point though it's supposed to symbolize a covenant with god or something.

I once read that in some areas, where clean water was scarce, penile cancer was more prevalent. Hence circumcision for males, it reduces the risk apparently. Sorry, cannot remember the source.

Female circumcision? Spite, jealousy and control freakery by men. I just cannot imagine any woman inventing it and prescribing it for herself.

I think it is ironic that many ancient people mutilated their children as a way of marking them as members of the tribe. That “God” would require this only illustrates how much he is a product of the imaginations of primitive people. How it caught on among Gentiles I cannot say, since the New Testament says not to do it anymore. For once, I agree with the Bible. (It might have to do with Paul’s description in Galatians of his missionary companion Titus, who consented to be circumcised as a means of expanding his ministry to the Jews.)

I fought with my wife over this issue for our boys. I did my research and decided there was no good medical reason to circumcise and it violated the first tenet: Do No Harm. My wife wanted the boys circumcised for 'aesthetic' reasons. She thought uncircumcised penises were 'gross'. In the end, I was unwilling to die on that particular hill.