Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

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Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#1  Postby Ironclad » Feb 20, 2012 8:39 pm

A five year old boy who rejected his gender is now living as a girl with the support of his family, doctors and school.

Zach Avery was three when he started questioning his gender, and began wearing dresses and ribbons in his hair.

Following a psychological evaluation he was diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder (GID), and has now been living as a girl for more than a year.


According to his mother Theresa Avery, until the age of three Zach was a regular boy who loved Thomas the Tank Engine, but suddenly he became obsessed with Dora the Explorer and started dressing in girls clothes.

Ms Avery, who has three other children, told the Daily Telegraph that Zach's anguish at being a boy was such that "he used to cry and try to cut off his willy out of frustration."


Kind of speechless here, isn't this just a case of 'dressing-up' playtime, overacted on by adults? Or... :think:
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#2  Postby Macroinvertebrate » Feb 21, 2012 1:58 am

If the kid is trying to cut off his own penis, the root (no pun intended, Aussies) of his problems runs far deeper than just a 'gender identity disorder'. He needs extensive therapy, not a sex change.
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#3  Postby meneope » Nov 16, 2012 12:02 am

I used to be quite open about this issue, but these days [after having seen some programmes] I have serious reserves about it. Some people look like they are just seeking attention and social validation. I've seen a boy on tele cross-dressed [in wait for his sex-reasignment] and behave even loosier than her gfs so much that they have to complain about it! I've seen a beautiful girl turned into a boy only to love a tomboy who in turn wants a sex-reassignment too - meaning both girls turned into men to love each others as gay! Makes you wonder whether these young people even know what they are doing!?!
End of the day it's an ontological debate: what makes a woman a woman (or a man a man)? Is it all in the dress, in the make-up? Is that all there's to it? All in the act? This may easily turn into a radical feminist viewpoint - I mean take a teen magazine and that's exactly the view you get of women it seems! And while this question may be answered by biologists, the question could be modified to become completely abstract: what makes a human being human or humane?

This culture of dumbing down gender which has been going on over the past 50 years seems to be more of an open ended experiment in applied philosophy than empirical reality. What we do empirically know is that there have been many social-psychological evidences suggesting not only that men and women think differently and adopt different mating strategies but also the differences begin from babyhood - i.e. prior to socialisation!
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#4  Postby Minimolas » Nov 24, 2012 8:46 am

I think it's very good that he is getting support and not being ignored and ridiculed. I don't have much to say other than that! :)
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#5  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 24, 2012 8:55 am

@menope and Macroinvertebrate: Unless you know the specifics concerning this boys mental state, I would refrain from making judgements to the effect that there's more or something else going on than gender identity disorder.

Especially you, Macroinvertebrate seem to be woefully uninformed on this issue, or you have missed a lot of crucial points in the programmes you've seen.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#6  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 24, 2012 3:02 pm

@menope

Read this article and read the stories of these kids:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Netherlands/Wrong%20Body.html

You might understand a bit better.

BTW Valentijn in the article is now a top model.

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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#7  Postby Señor Figueroa » Nov 24, 2012 3:10 pm

meneope wrote:I used to be quite open about this issue, but these days [after having seen some programmes] I have serious reserves about it. Some people look like they are just seeking attention and social validation. I've seen a boy on tele cross-dressed [in wait for his sex-reasignment] and behave even loosier than her gfs so much that they have to complain about it! I've seen a beautiful girl turned into a boy only to love a tomboy who in turn wants a sex-reassignment too - meaning both girls turned into men to love each others as gay! Makes you wonder whether these young people even know what they are doing!?!
End of the day it's an ontological debate: what makes a woman a woman (or a man a man)? Is it all in the dress, in the make-up? Is that all there's to it? All in the act? This may easily turn into a radical feminist viewpoint - I mean take a teen magazine and that's exactly the view you get of women it seems! And while this question may be answered by biologists, the question could be modified to become completely abstract: what makes a human being human or humane?

This culture of dumbing down gender which has been going on over the past 50 years seems to be more of an open ended experiment in applied philosophy than empirical reality. What we do empirically know is that there have been many social-psychological evidences suggesting not only that men and women think differently and adopt different mating strategies but also the differences begin from babyhood - i.e. prior to socialisation!
How is defining what makes a man a man or a woman a woman an 'ontological debate'? What has this to do with what makes a human a human? (if that question even makes sense in the context).
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#8  Postby John P. M. » Nov 24, 2012 3:58 pm

I don't have too much to contribute with on this topic, as I don't know too much about it, but I did watch a small documentary not too long ago about a family here in Norway where the parents chose to keep both girl's clothes and boy's clothes and toys in their home, and let their kids decide what they wanted to wear/play with at any given time, as bias free as they could. And one of the boys at a very young age picked out things like pink dresses to wear and so on. But, only a few years later, he had voluntarily started dressing in boy's clothes and playing with typical boy's toys, and didn't want to put on a dress anymore.

Of course, I suppose that even if he's still at a very young age, one could interject that he is now more influenced by peers (after all, he must have friends to play with), and so there may be a pressure to conform already. I guess one won't know until later.

But in that example too, it seemed to be a case of what he loved to watch and imagine being, from children's books and TV, which influenced what he wanted to wear and play with, without thought that it was "for girls".

I do think the OPs five years old seems too young an age to be making a lasting decision on this though, even though it was more than just toys and clothes in that instance. Although, as long as we're not talking surgery or hormone therapy at that age, there's no harm in letting him dress in and play with whatever he wants.

IIRC, here in Norway, kids who display 'gender issues' are monitored and have regular talks with professionals, and then at a later age it is decided if they should get treatment to go one way or the other.
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#9  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 24, 2012 4:06 pm

John P. M. wrote:I do think the OPs five years old seems too young an age to be making a lasting decision on this though, even though it was more than just toys and clothes in that instance.


Sorry that is not the Dutch experience. If you read the article I posted you would see that five is a an age when children do often decide what they want to be.
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#10  Postby ED209 » Nov 24, 2012 4:39 pm

Ironclad wrote:
Kind of speechless here, isn't this just a case of 'dressing-up' playtime, overacted on by adults? Or... :think:


They've certainly pinkified the absolute shit of his/her bedroom. Do five-year-olds really have such overpowering concepts of gender, let alone gender-based senses of personal identity?

And yeah, why would he try to cut off his penis - surely he wouldn't even know what function it has at that age. Just that he likes playing with 'my little pony' or whatever it is that would conclusively unarguably and irreversibly identify him as a five-year-old girl*.

*not really, obviously
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#11  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 24, 2012 4:46 pm

ED209 wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
Kind of speechless here, isn't this just a case of 'dressing-up' playtime, overacted on by adults? Or... :think:


They've certainly pinkified the absolute shit of his/her bedroom. Do five-year-olds really have such overpowering concepts of gender, let alone gender-based senses of personal identity?

And yeah, why would he try to cut off his penis - surely he wouldn't even know what function it has at that age. Just that he likes playing with 'my little pony' or whatever it is that would conclusively unarguably and irreversibly identify him as a five-year-old girl*.

*not really, obviously


I think you would be very surprised by what they know at that age I can assure you.
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#12  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 24, 2012 5:50 pm

I don't know what the procedure is in the U.K., but here in the Netherlands you have to have a psychological evaluation before you can have transitional surgery. So cries 'attention seeking' , 'to youn' are quite possibly premature.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#13  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 24, 2012 6:03 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:I don't know what the procedure is in the U.K., but here in the Netherlands you have to have a psychological evaluation before you can have transitional surgery. So cries 'attention seeking' , 'to youn' are quite possibly premature.


It is a very long process and carefully monitored.
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#14  Postby Imagination Theory » Nov 24, 2012 6:21 pm

John P. M. wrote:I don't have too much to contribute with on this topic, as I don't know too much about it, but I did watch a small documentary not too long ago about a family here in Norway where the parents chose to keep both girl's clothes and boy's clothes and toys in their home, and let their kids decide what they wanted to wear/play with at any given time, as bias free as they could. And one of the boys at a very young age picked out things like pink dresses to wear and so on. But, only a few years later, he had voluntarily started dressing in boy's clothes and playing with typical boy's toys, and didn't want to put on a dress anymore.

Of course, I suppose that even if he's still at a very young age, one could interject that he is now more influenced by peers (after all, he must have friends to play with), and so there may be a pressure to conform already. I guess one won't know until later.

But in that example too, it seemed to be a case of what he loved to watch and imagine being, from children's books and TV, which influenced what he wanted to wear and play with, without thought that it was "for girls".

I do think the OPs five years old seems too young an age to be making a lasting decision on this though, even though it was more than just toys and clothes in that instance. Although, as long as we're not talking surgery or hormone therapy at that age, there's no harm in letting him dress in and play with whatever he wants.

IIRC, here in Norway, kids who display 'gender issues' are monitored and have regular talks with professionals, and then at a later age it is decided if they should get treatment to go one way or the other.


She is just being supported right now and having talks with professionals. She is not doing surgery or hormones at the moment. Maybe she will at about age 10-13 years.
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#15  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 24, 2012 11:52 pm

In the Netherlands the age for puberty blockers is 16, the age for surgery 18.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#16  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 25, 2012 4:53 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:In the Netherlands the age for puberty blockers is 16, the age for surgery 18.


These days here they start at ten to twelve with puberty blockers.

A model protocol currently employed in the Netherlands begins with a lengthy screening process in
gender-variant pubescent teens at the "Tanner 2" stage of pubertal development: breast budding in girls
and testicular volumes of 8 cc, preceding phallic enlargement in boys. At this stage the pubertal manifestations
are reversible. GnRH analogues are given for at least two years, potentially until age 16,
when adolescents in the Netherlands are capable of giving informed consent to receive crosshormones.
By blocking puberty, GnRH treatment buys time for FTMs to achieve a height more typical of males
and for continued assessment of all patients’ desire to transition. If the Dutch clinical trial proves medically
and psychologically safe, it will become the standard of care in the Netherlands, and treatment
will be covered by the government health insurance.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fangelhair.ca%2FPDFs%2FTransgenderism.pdf&ei=HkqyUKKxAZDKsgaHlIHYCQ&usg=AFQjCNH7TBkfBxbYStA6uMImKkWXmVxQUA&sig2=8b9S0FbVHTvygmCHZypPVw
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#17  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 25, 2012 9:13 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:In the Netherlands the age for puberty blockers is 16, the age for surgery 18.


These days here they start at ten to twelve with puberty blockers.

A model protocol currently employed in the Netherlands begins with a lengthy screening process in
gender-variant pubescent teens at the "Tanner 2" stage of pubertal development: breast budding in girls
and testicular volumes of 8 cc, preceding phallic enlargement in boys. At this stage the pubertal manifestations
are reversible. GnRH analogues are given for at least two years, potentially until age 16,
when adolescents in the Netherlands are capable of giving informed consent to receive crosshormones.
By blocking puberty, GnRH treatment buys time for FTMs to achieve a height more typical of males
and for continued assessment of all patients’ desire to transition. If the Dutch clinical trial proves medically
and psychologically safe, it will become the standard of care in the Netherlands, and treatment
will be covered by the government health insurance.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fangelhair.ca%2FPDFs%2FTransgenderism.pdf&ei=HkqyUKKxAZDKsgaHlIHYCQ&usg=AFQjCNH7TBkfBxbYStA6uMImKkWXmVxQUA&sig2=8b9S0FbVHTvygmCHZypPVw

I see, thanks for the update. Quite understandable though that they lowered the age.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#18  Postby Mick » Nov 25, 2012 9:27 pm

lol. Eradicate the foundations of society (the family, marriage, gender roles, God, etc.) and you get this shit. awesome.
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#19  Postby DaveD » Nov 25, 2012 9:42 pm

Mick wrote:lol. Eradicate the foundations of society (the family, marriage, gender roles, God, etc.) and you get this shit. awesome.

Repressing sexuality, according to "God's Law", is better, you think?
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Re: Five Year Old Boy Opts to Become a Girl

#20  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 26, 2012 8:27 am

Mick wrote:lol. Eradicate the foundations of society (the family, marriage, gender roles, God, etc.) and you get this shit. awesome.

:lol:
Yep, because divorce is such a nice thing innit?
Do tell us how does this 'eradicate the foundations of society'?
You might want to watch this as well Mick:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8mWXofb-fo[/youtube]
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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