Intersex

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Re: Intersex

#41  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 14, 2014 11:41 am

Veida wrote:And the sad part is that this case isn't unique - it is a fairly common story for these children.


Which is exactly why they should be left alone.
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Re: Intersex

#42  Postby Fallible » Feb 14, 2014 1:50 pm

Poor bloody kids.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Intersex

#43  Postby chairman bill » Feb 14, 2014 1:51 pm

Intersex? Is that like Interflora, but a bit racier for Valentine's Day?
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Re: Intersex

#44  Postby Veida » Feb 14, 2014 2:44 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Veida wrote:And the sad part is that this case isn't unique - it is a fairly common story for these children.

Which is exactly why they should be left alone.

Well, there's also the minor issue that the surgery sometimes desensitizes areas which definitely should be sensitive.
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Re: Intersex

#45  Postby HomerJay » Feb 14, 2014 3:06 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Even the UN condemns it.

No, they don't.

You have to think what the role of a Special Rapporteur is first.

Then you have to understand what the guy actually said, bear in mind people in a similar position have argued for blasphemy charges against apostates.

He's very unclear about what consent means and very unclear what forced means.
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Re: Intersex

#46  Postby HomerJay » Feb 14, 2014 3:07 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Voltage wrote:Great points folks, If I had a child that was born with ambiguous genitalia, I would definitely have the child go through surgery to make it a male or female. I feel like this would be the best option for the child because in the future, he or she would probably be confuse or feel different about them selves if they weren’t like everyone else. And I think that it would have a negative impact on their self-esteem. I would raise my child just like I would if they didn’t have this condition because I would want them to feel normal and have a normal childhood.

what do u guys think?

That this is the same argument used by homophobes in favor of curing homosexuality.
'Cause homosexuals are confused and would fit better into society if they were like everyone else.

Note: I'm not saying or implying you're a homophobe, just pointing out that changing someone to be the same as everyone else isn't necisarrily a good argument/position.

It really isn't the same argument at all, the only reason I think you have introduced this canard is to try to slur another member.

It's an awful piece of emotional blackmail.

Absolutely disgusting but not uncommon technique here..

This both a deliberate straw-man and empty dismissal.
I specifically stated I do not consider nor seek to accuse Voltage of being homophobic. I merely used it as an example to point out the flaw in thinking being the same as everyone else is a always a good thing.

The only one presenting a personal slur here is you, since I spefically stated that was not the point of my analogy.

No, again if you looked at something like Cleft Palate surgery, that would be a useful analogy, in both cases there is no discrimination involved, with gay cures there clearly is.
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Re: Intersex

#47  Postby HomerJay » Feb 14, 2014 3:09 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Even in America.

State of SC sued for deciding gender of, operating on, intersex baby


Still think surgery is a good option?

What was the outcome of the case?

Did they win or were they just chancers looking for a quick hit?
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Re: Intersex

#48  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 14, 2014 3:16 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
That this is the same argument used by homophobes in favor of curing homosexuality.
'Cause homosexuals are confused and would fit better into society if they were like everyone else.

Note: I'm not saying or implying you're a homophobe, just pointing out that changing someone to be the same as everyone else isn't necisarrily a good argument/position.

It really isn't the same argument at all, the only reason I think you have introduced this canard is to try to slur another member.

It's an awful piece of emotional blackmail.

Absolutely disgusting but not uncommon technique here..

This both a deliberate straw-man and empty dismissal.
I specifically stated I do not consider nor seek to accuse Voltage of being homophobic. I merely used it as an example to point out the flaw in thinking being the same as everyone else is a always a good thing.

The only one presenting a personal slur here is you, since I spefically stated that was not the point of my analogy.

No, again if you looked at something like Cleft Palate surgery, that would be a useful analogy, in both cases there is no discrimination involved, with gay cures there clearly is.

Goes to show you missed the point.
I never said gay cures are analogous to gender surgery.
I said the argument used in favor of gender surgery, that is to fit in/be the same as the rest of society, is the same that's being used to argue in support of 'curing' homosexuality.
In both cases the argument is the same: to avoid bigotry and being different we should try to make everyone the same.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Intersex

#49  Postby HomerJay » Feb 14, 2014 3:25 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
It really isn't the same argument at all, the only reason I think you have introduced this canard is to try to slur another member.

It's an awful piece of emotional blackmail.

Absolutely disgusting but not uncommon technique here..

This both a deliberate straw-man and empty dismissal.
I specifically stated I do not consider nor seek to accuse Voltage of being homophobic. I merely used it as an example to point out the flaw in thinking being the same as everyone else is a always a good thing.

The only one presenting a personal slur here is you, since I spefically stated that was not the point of my analogy.

No, again if you looked at something like Cleft Palate surgery, that would be a useful analogy, in both cases there is no discrimination involved, with gay cures there clearly is.

Goes to show you missed the point.
I never said gay cures are analogous to gender surgery.
I said the argument used in favor of gender surgery, that is to fit in/be the same as the rest of society, is the same that's being used to argue in support of 'curing' homosexuality.
In both cases the argument is the same: to avoid bigotry and being different we should try to make everyone the same.

As it is with Cleft Palate surgery, are you seriously gonna say that arguments in favour of Cleft Palate surgery are the same as those for curing gayness?

:rofl:
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Re: Intersex

#50  Postby Strontium Dog » Feb 14, 2014 4:14 pm

chairman bill wrote:Intersex? Is that like Interflora, but a bit racier for Valentine's Day?


Someone told me they were intersex once.

I told them I was quite into sex too.
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Re: Intersex

#51  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 14, 2014 10:33 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
This both a deliberate straw-man and empty dismissal.
I specifically stated I do not consider nor seek to accuse Voltage of being homophobic. I merely used it as an example to point out the flaw in thinking being the same as everyone else is a always a good thing.

The only one presenting a personal slur here is you, since I spefically stated that was not the point of my analogy.

No, again if you looked at something like Cleft Palate surgery, that would be a useful analogy, in both cases there is no discrimination involved, with gay cures there clearly is.

Goes to show you missed the point.
I never said gay cures are analogous to gender surgery.
I said the argument used in favor of gender surgery, that is to fit in/be the same as the rest of society, is the same that's being used to argue in support of 'curing' homosexuality.
In both cases the argument is the same: to avoid bigotry and being different we should try to make everyone the same.

As it is with Cleft Palate surgery, are you seriously gonna say that arguments in favour of Cleft Palate surgery are the same as those for curing gayness?

:rofl:

No, only the single specific argument that action X should be taken to make someone be the same as everyone else to avoid being different is similar. Which is to show it might not always be a good argument.
Last edited by Thomas Eshuis on Feb 15, 2014 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intersex

#52  Postby Agrippina » Feb 15, 2014 5:15 am

Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary for the child to be able to eat, and learn to speak, not merely for aesthetic purposes, or to pander to the insecurities of people who find people who don't fit into their particular idea of what is "normal" something to be amused about. So definitely I would have a cleft palate fixed. Gender issues, not so much. I'd rather become an activist about it, make fools of the people who think it's funny to laugh at people who don't fit their image of perfection.
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Re: Intersex

#53  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 15, 2014 8:49 am

Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary for the child to be able to eat, and learn to speak, not merely for aesthetic purposes, or to pander to the insecurities of people who find people who don't fit into their particular idea of what is "normal" something to be amused about. So definitely I would have a cleft palate fixed. Gender issues, not so much. I'd rather become an activist about it, make fools of the people who think it's funny to laugh at people who don't fit their image of perfection.

:nod:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Intersex

#54  Postby HomerJay » Feb 16, 2014 11:08 am

Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary...

No, it's not.

Like any condition there will always be a spectrum, some that require surgery but not all.

Some can be very serious, life threatening even and some not at all.

Otherwise, historically, it would have been regarded as a non-survivable condition. I think people forget that what we do today has not always been the case.

But even so it is daft to say that any procedure (surgical, ethical, educational) aimed at a normative goal is 'just like gay cures'.

It's a wholly weak, associative argument which is either a derivative of Godwin's, or perhaps a neologism is needed to encompass the whole lot.
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Re: Intersex

#55  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 16, 2014 11:10 am

HomerJay wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary...

No, it's not.

Like any condition there will always be a spectrum, some that require surgery but not all.

Some can be very serious, life threatening even and some not at all.

Otherwise, historically, it would have been regarded as a non-survivable condition. I think people forget that what we do today has not always been the case.

But even so it is daft to say that any procedure (surgical, ethical, educational) aimed at a normative goal is 'just like gay cures'.

It's a wholly weak, associative argument which is either a derivative of Godwin's, or perhaps a neologism is needed to encompass the whole lot.

Hence why no-one's made that argument.
But do continue to rail against your own straw-man if that's what you want.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Intersex

#56  Postby HomerJay » Feb 16, 2014 11:47 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary...

No, it's not.

Like any condition there will always be a spectrum, some that require surgery but not all.

Some can be very serious, life threatening even and some not at all.

Otherwise, historically, it would have been regarded as a non-survivable condition. I think people forget that what we do today has not always been the case.

But even so it is daft to say that any procedure (surgical, ethical, educational) aimed at a normative goal is 'just like gay cures'.

It's a wholly weak, associative argument which is either a derivative of Godwin's, or perhaps a neologism is needed to encompass the whole lot.

Hence why no-one's made that argument.
But do continue to rail against your own straw-man if that's what you want.

Man who regularly uses weak, emotive, associative reasoning doesn't know that's what he's doing, quelle surprise.
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Re: Intersex

#57  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 16, 2014 11:59 am

HomerJay wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary...

No, it's not.

Like any condition there will always be a spectrum, some that require surgery but not all.

Some can be very serious, life threatening even and some not at all.

Otherwise, historically, it would have been regarded as a non-survivable condition. I think people forget that what we do today has not always been the case.

But even so it is daft to say that any procedure (surgical, ethical, educational) aimed at a normative goal is 'just like gay cures'.

It's a wholly weak, associative argument which is either a derivative of Godwin's, or perhaps a neologism is needed to encompass the whole lot.

Hence why no-one's made that argument.
But do continue to rail against your own straw-man if that's what you want.

Man who regularly uses weak, emotive, associative reasoning doesn't know that's what he's doing, quelle surprise.

So now you've gone from deliberate misrepresentation to personal attacks. :nono:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Intersex

#58  Postby Agrippina » Feb 16, 2014 1:03 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary...

No, it's not.



If you read the rest of the sentence... if it's interfering with the kid's ability to eat, then it is necessary. :roll:
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Re: Intersex

#59  Postby HomerJay » Feb 16, 2014 2:15 pm

Agrippina wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary...

No, it's not.



If you read the rest of the sentence... if it's interfering with the kid's ability to eat, then it is necessary. :roll:

It's necessary for the child to be able to eat, and learn to speak,

Can you just point out the IF please?
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Re: Intersex

#60  Postby Agrippina » Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

HomerJay wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Fixing a cleft palate is a different thing altogether. It's necessary...

No, it's not.



If you read the rest of the sentence... if it's interfering with the kid's ability to eat, then it is necessary. :roll:

It's necessary for the child to be able to eat, and learn to speak,

Can you just point out the IF please?


You know, I don't actually care what you think. If I had a kid with an extreme outward feature that can't be hidden with clothes, whether it was a hairlip or a wart, and that would make him/her the butt of other children's jokes, I'd have it fixed. My kid, my decision. I child's sexuality is a totally different thing. Now this discussion is closed. If you want to pick a fight about it, go ahead. I'm going to ignore you. :thumbup:
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