Intersex

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Intersex

#1  Postby Voltage » Feb 13, 2014 7:41 am

Here is a question I was wondering......If you had a child with ambiguous genitalia, what would you do? Would you consider surgery to make the male or female? Why or why not? How would you raise him or her?
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Re: Intersex

#2  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 13, 2014 8:21 am

I would not consider surgery for my child unless there was a medical need.
Meaning they'd have a handicap or risk of dying if said surgery was not performed.
Ergo I wouldn't consider sex surgery if my child was born intersex.

I wouldn't raise my children, regardless of sex as either 'boys' or 'girls', I'd just raise them and let them do, think and dress as they want.
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Re: Intersex

#3  Postby surreptitious57 » Feb 13, 2014 8:42 am

I would give it an androgynous name and try not to impose gender stereotypes on it. I do not know if hermaphrodites
have a dominant sexual or psychological side or if they regard themselves as equally male / female but as long as it
was happy within itself that would be all that would matter. I suspect it would be harder for society because gender
is regarded as being absolutely binary when only predominantly so though natural hermaphrodites are extremely rare
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Re: Intersex

#4  Postby Veida » Feb 13, 2014 9:07 am

I would definitely not consider surgery unless it was medically motivated. When the child is small one cannot tell which way it will go, and it could become very bad for the child if the surgery went one way and the child the other. Surgery can wait until the child can decide for itself.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how I would raise the child. Are you referring to whether I would somehow treat them differently based on their gender?

I'm currently raising both kinds and I don't think I'm treating them differently because of their gender. The differences in how I treat them stem from their own personalities, tempers, habits, and desires, not from whether I think of them as boys or girls. A couple of them like colors that are not gender-typical and like to have non gender-typical hair lengths, which has caused many misunderstandings in shops, etc, in particular when they were younger (pre-school). For example the boy who likes red and wants to have long hair was often mistaken for a girl. The girl who likes black and blue and prefers short hair was often mistaken for a boy.
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Re: Intersex

#5  Postby zulumoose » Feb 13, 2014 9:30 am

As I understand it the correct use of the term "gender" is how one self-identifies, in other words a pre-op transsexual can have a different gender to their sex.

Given that understanding, it makes no sense to operate before the gender is apparant unless there is a medical need, which I have heard can often be the case as internal testicles can be extremely risky in terms of things like raising the cancer probability.
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Re: Intersex

#6  Postby Agrippina » Feb 13, 2014 9:59 am

Don't the authorities insist on "gender" on the birth certificate? Surgery can wait until puberty, but the authorities want the birth certificate to reflect a gender description.
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Re: Intersex

#7  Postby zulumoose » Feb 13, 2014 10:03 am

Gender is listed on the S.A. birth certificate, as well as the ID number identifying male or female with the 7th digit representing female (0) or male (5)

I don't think it is the correct use of the term though. They should say sex rather than gender.
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Re: Intersex

#8  Postby Agrippina » Feb 13, 2014 10:13 am

zulumoose wrote:Gender is listed on the S.A. birth certificate, as well as the ID number identifying male or female with the 7th digit representing female (0) or male (5)

I don't think it is the correct use of the term though. They should say sex rather than gender.


I would like to see it not being an issue. Just the child's name and date of birth, and parents mentioned on the document, and then when the child declares it's preference during its teens, the actual "gender" can then be defined. All kids should be raised in a way that doesn't designate some or other stereotype on them. Just my opinion.
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Re: Intersex

#9  Postby Veida » Feb 13, 2014 10:38 am

Agrippina wrote:Don't the authorities insist on "gender" on the birth certificate? Surgery can wait until puberty, but the authorities want the birth certificate to reflect a gender description.

Here the problem - if that is the right word - is that the mandatory personal identification numbers that all children get at birth encode whether the person is male or female. There is no way to assign a number which does not encode this information (when a particular digit is odd the person is male, and when it is even the person is female).

So if one guesses wrong at birth, the child will need to legally change its sex and get a new personal identification number.
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Re: Intersex

#10  Postby Agrippina » Feb 13, 2014 10:44 am

Veida wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Don't the authorities insist on "gender" on the birth certificate? Surgery can wait until puberty, but the authorities want the birth certificate to reflect a gender description.

Here the problem - if that is the right word - is that the mandatory personal identification numbers that all children get at birth encode whether the person is male or female. There is no way to assign a number which does not encode this information (when a particular digit is odd the person is male, and when it is even the person is female).

So if one guesses wrong at birth, the child will need to legally change its sex and get a new personal identification number.


Yeah, but what about not using that system.
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Re: Intersex

#11  Postby Veida » Feb 13, 2014 10:54 am

You seem to be under the impression that this is somehow optional. It isn't.
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Re: Intersex

#12  Postby Agrippina » Feb 13, 2014 11:03 am

Veida wrote:You seem to be under the impression that this is somehow optional. It isn't.


No, I'm saying that the business of allocating identification numbers could be changed to not include a number for gender. It's easy enough to do that. Ours used to include a number for race. I don't know if they still do that. It used to be date of birth, the number allocated on the day of birth, if you were born today, and the first child registered, it would be 1402130001 and then three digits for race and gender. If the race identification can be removed, then so can gender, as I said until the person is old enough to drive and then it can be allocated, or something like that.
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Re: Intersex

#13  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Feb 13, 2014 12:14 pm

Some countries have adopted X in addition to F or M on identification documents because, surprise, not everyone is biologically male or female.

Nope. Not cutting away at the healthy genital tissue of a child. They can decide if they want that modification made, not me.

BTW, not everyone who is intersex has ambiguous genitals. It could just be someone's chromosomes and/or gonads that aren't distinctly male or female. My chromosomes aren't XX or XY. I have female reproductive organs and genitals though.
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Re: Intersex

#14  Postby Veida » Feb 13, 2014 12:55 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Veida wrote:You seem to be under the impression that this is somehow optional. It isn't.


No, I'm saying that the business of allocating identification numbers could be changed to not include a number for gender. It's easy enough to do that. Ours used to include a number for race. I don't know if they still do that. It used to be date of birth, the number allocated on the day of birth, if you were born today, and the first child registered, it would be 1402130001 and then three digits for race and gender. If the race identification can be removed, then so can gender, as I said until the person is old enough to drive and then it can be allocated, or something like that.

Ah, now I see what you mean.

The government actually looked at this very issue about five years ago, but decided to keep the gender encoding. The main reason for doing so was that it facilitated collecting a lot of statistics - it is required by law that statistics are collected such that it can be grouped by male/female. That's useful for detecting inequalities in salaries, health, etc.

Conflicting goals, obviously.
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Re: Intersex

#15  Postby Agrippina » Feb 13, 2014 4:22 pm

Veida wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Veida wrote:You seem to be under the impression that this is somehow optional. It isn't.


No, I'm saying that the business of allocating identification numbers could be changed to not include a number for gender. It's easy enough to do that. Ours used to include a number for race. I don't know if they still do that. It used to be date of birth, the number allocated on the day of birth, if you were born today, and the first child registered, it would be 1402130001 and then three digits for race and gender. If the race identification can be removed, then so can gender, as I said until the person is old enough to drive and then it can be allocated, or something like that.

Ah, now I see what you mean.

The government actually looked at this very issue about five years ago, but decided to keep the gender encoding. The main reason for doing so was that it facilitated collecting a lot of statistics - it is required by law that statistics are collected such that it can be grouped by male/female. That's useful for detecting inequalities in salaries, health, etc.

Conflicting goals, obviously.

Sure, but you don't have to do that with underage children. Which is why i say, until a kid can decide, it should be neutral. There could be a way around it.
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Re: Intersex

#16  Postby Veida » Feb 13, 2014 9:00 pm

Agrippina wrote:Sure, but you don't have to do that with underage children. Which is why i say, until a kid can decide, it should be neutral. There could be a way around it.

The way around it would be to not encode male/female into the number, but instead pass this information in some other way on the side. This would entail changing quite a number of administrative systems used by the government, health care, schools, ensurance companies, banks, etc, etc.
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Re: Intersex

#17  Postby Voltage » Feb 13, 2014 10:59 pm

Great points folks, If I had a child that was born with ambiguous genitalia, I would definitely have the child go through surgery to make it a male or female. I feel like this would be the best option for the child because in the future, he or she would probably be confuse or feel different about them selves if they weren’t like everyone else. And I think that it would have a negative impact on their self-esteem. I would raise my child just like I would if they didn’t have this condition because I would want them to feel normal and have a normal childhood.

what do u guys think?
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Re: Intersex

#18  Postby Voltage » Feb 13, 2014 11:01 pm

zulumoose wrote:As I understand it the correct use of the term "gender" is how one self-identifies, in other words a pre-op transsexual can have a different gender to their sex.

Given that understanding, it makes no sense to operate before the gender is apparant unless there is a medical need, which I have heard can often be the case as internal testicles can be extremely risky in terms of things like raising the cancer probability.


good point, I would definitely consider surgery to make it male or female. My decision to make it male or female would depend on what it has more of. For example, if it had more of a penis I would make it male, or if it had more of a vagina I would make it a female. Another thing is which one is more functioning. I wouldn't want to base my decison on what gender I wanted more because it wouldn't feel right. It would just feel like I picked my own child's gender, and I don't think that is fair. I would raise him/her just as any other girl or boy is raised. I wouldn't treat him/her any different. He/she shouldn't be treated any different because they're just like everyone else.
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Re: Intersex

#19  Postby HomerJay » Feb 13, 2014 11:12 pm

Voltage wrote:Here is a question I was wondering......If you had a child with ambiguous genitalia, what would you do? Would you consider surgery to make the male or female? Why or why not? How would you raise him or her?

It's like any procedure, I'd go with the medical advice.

If the advice didn't meet my needs, I'd get more.
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Re: Intersex

#20  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 14, 2014 8:40 am

Voltage wrote:Great points folks, If I had a child that was born with ambiguous genitalia, I would definitely have the child go through surgery to make it a male or female. I feel like this would be the best option for the child because in the future, he or she would probably be confuse or feel different about them selves if they weren’t like everyone else. And I think that it would have a negative impact on their self-esteem. I would raise my child just like I would if they didn’t have this condition because I would want them to feel normal and have a normal childhood.

what do u guys think?

That this is the same argument used by homophobes in favor of curing homosexuality.
'Cause homosexuals are confused and would fit better into society if they were like everyone else.

Note: I'm not saying or implying you're a homophobe, just pointing out that changing someone to be the same as everyone else isn't necisarrily a good argument/position.
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