YanShen wrote:Ah but see your definition of commercial is so broad as to be useless. Clearly everyone is paid for their services in some fashion. By your definition, even a prostitute produces commercial value because they earn money for themselves and possibly their pimp.

I mean commercial value as in, the knowledge that professors produce isn't readily commercialized directly.

Ironically, isn't much of higher education free in socialist Europe?

Not in the UK, but in a lot of Europe, yeah (although not for foreigners). And professors don't get paid as much as America as a result, because the profit margins for universities aren't as high. Of course every service has a commercial value. But the salary of those working in it is determined by its commercial value, not its intellectual value. Professors don't get paid more than school teachers because their work has more intellectual merit (although arguably it does), they get paid more because universities make money and schools don't. Drug dealers get paid a lot of money because the illegality of their product increases its commercial value, not because they're contributing anything of intellectual value over the shop selling tobacco. There will undoubtedly be a number of drug lords in the top 10% of earners, purely because of the commercial value of what they're selling. Footballers get paid more than rugby players. It's not more difficult. It has no greater intrinsic value. There aren't fewer people who can do it at a high level. It's just worth more money to advertisers. In music, it's often the exact opposite. Most people would argue that the stuff that results in the biggest rewards is the stuff with less intellectual merit. Obviously that's a bit more difficult to measure though.

The knowledge professors produce isn't commercialized directly, no. They are not paid for their knowledge, they are paid for their ability to teach it and make money teaching it. And of course the university has to fund their research to ensure that they remain at the cutting edge of knowledge in the field they teach so that they can become more attractive to students. But the intellectual value they create is not why they're paid. If it was, they wouldn't have to teach it too.

middle-class values is that there is just so much silliness about who people's parents were, what their careers were and what cars they drive and the clothing labels they wear.

Well, perhaps where you live. But where I live, nobody from the Middle Class ever compares this stuff in an "I am better than you" way. That might be the upper class. The question was something like: "what are the middle class values where you are?" and mine do not include snobbery.

Teshi wrote:

middle-class values is that there is just so much silliness about who people's parents were, what their careers were and what cars they drive and the clothing labels they wear.

Well, perhaps where you live. But where I live, nobody from the Middle Class ever compares this stuff in an "I am better than you" way. That might be the upper class. The question was something like: "what are the middle class values where you are?" and mine do not include snobbery.

They might not do it where you live, or else you don't live around wannabes.
I've had the whining about my choice of clothes from thrift stores all my life and the idea that I don't get pedicures and manicures and I only go to the salon when my hair gets out of control. All the women I know go once a week and having a pedicure to some of them is far more important than the food value of what they eat.

Mostly I was talking about what is expected of people who are middle class, i.e. that they have ambitions for their kids to become professionals, and that their kids go to the 'right' schools.

Here's one example of what I'm talking about.
My kids were never taught to say "please" and "thank you" unless they really meant it. So they'd say something like:
"The button came off my blazer and the prefects get hysterical if it's not buttoned up. I've left it on your chair if you don't mind while you're watching TV tonight, thanks Mom!"
My mother, overhearing this would call the kid back and say "what's the magic word?" Huh? What's wrong with putting it like that? Then there'd be a whole argument because the kid didn't say "pleaaaaaaaaase!" He'd end up saying it while rolling his eyes at the ceiling.
Or they'd walk into the kitchen to get their breakfast on the way to school, grab a bowl, get some cereal, eat it and pick up their sandwiches and go. Not saying a word but waiting for me at the car when I was ready. Then my mother would go on:
"don't you teach your children to say "good morning?" and another fight would go on,with me rolling my eyes trying to explain to her to just stay in her room until we were gone and not bothering about the morning rush when everyone is in a hurry to get to wherever they're going in the traffic.
These are stupid middle-class things that annoy me. If a kid asks for something in a nice way, not demanding but politely, why does it have to be attached to a plea. The same goes for "I beg your pardon" I don't beg, I say "what" if I don't understand or I say "I didn't understand what you were saying." My mother, and her middle-class voice would say, "you are so rude, say "I beg your pardon!" and then there's the "bless you" thing when people sneeze and the whole giving of birthday gifts thing. I'm on a roll now. Christ I hate all this stuff.

I don't give people birthday presents, I give them presents when I see something they like even if it's not their birthday, I don't make a fuss about people's birthdays. And I don't say "bless you" "good night" "good morning" "how are you?" it's all a load of middle class niceness. And I don't do "nice."

Sorry that was a bit of a rant, but really we get bogged down with all this extraneous greeting and pleading and "niceness" while sticking knives in each other's backs. I'd rather that if someone didn't like me they just ignored me rather than "good morning" me when they don't mean "have a good morning!"

Agrippina wrote:

Teshi wrote:

middle-class values is that there is just so much silliness about who people's parents were, what their careers were and what cars they drive and the clothing labels they wear.

Well, perhaps where you live. But where I live, nobody from the Middle Class ever compares this stuff in an "I am better than you" way. That might be the upper class. The question was something like: "what are the middle class values where you are?" and mine do not include snobbery.

They might not do it where you live, or else you don't live around wannabes.
I've had the whining about my choice of clothes from thrift stores all my life and the idea that I don't get pedicures and manicures and I only go to the salon when my hair gets out of control. All the women I know go once a week and having a pedicure to some of them is far more important than the food value of what they eat.

Mostly I was talking about what is expected of people who are middle class, i.e. that they have ambitions for their kids to become professionals, and that their kids go to the 'right' schools.

Here's one example of what I'm talking about.
My kids were never taught to say "please" and "thank you" unless they really meant it. So they'd say something like:
"The button came off my blazer and the prefects get hysterical if it's not buttoned up. I've left it on your chair if you don't mind while you're watching TV tonight, thanks Mom!"
My mother, overhearing this would call the kid back and say "what's the magic word?" Huh? What's wrong with putting it like that? Then there'd be a whole argument because the kid didn't say "pleaaaaaaaaase!" He'd end up saying it while rolling his eyes at the ceiling.
Or they'd walk into the kitchen to get their breakfast on the way to school, grab a bowl, get some cereal, eat it and pick up their sandwiches and go. Not saying a word but waiting for at the car when I was ready. Then my mother would go on:
"don't you teach your children to say "good morning?" and another fight would go on,with me rolling my eyes trying to explain to her to just stay in her room until we were gone and not bothering about the morning rush when everyone is in a hurry to get to wherever they're going in the traffic.
These are stupid middle-class things that annoy me. If a kid asks for something in a nice way, not demanding but politely, why does it have to be attached to a plea. The same goes for "I beg your pardon" I don't beg, I say "what" if I don't understand or I say "I didn't understand what you were saying." My mother, and her middle-class voice would say, "you are so rude, say "I beg your pardon!" and then there's the "bless you" thing when people sneeze and the whole giving of birthday gifts thing. I'm on a roll now. Christ I hate all this stuff.

I don't give people birthday presents, I give them presents when I see something they like even if it's not their birthday, I don't make a fuss about people's birthdays. And I don't say "bless you" "good night" "good morning" "how are you?" it's all a load of middle class niceness. And I don't do "nice."

Sorry that was a bit of a rant, but really we get bogged down with all this extraneous greeting and pleading and "niceness" while sticking knives in each other's backs. I'd rather that is someone didn't like me they just ignored me rather than "good morning" me when they don't mean "have a good morning!"

I give them presents when I see something they like even if it's not their birthday, I don't make a fuss about people's birthdays.

But this is just your choice, it's not a middle class thing to celebrate birthdays of the people you love! And I am always nice and I always mean it. If I said "good morning", it's because I mean it-- and I am also being nice. Even people I dislike I am nice to because I mean it.

This may be offensive to you, but it sounds like you have a problem with your mother's way of living. You have decided that her mode of living is "middle class" and so you reject those things. That's perfectly valid. But it doesn't mean that celebrating birthdays is Middle Class or somehow meaningless in every family and for every person and everyone is just following the convention despite it meaning nothing. And it certainly doesn't mean that when you close the door you're planning the midnight knifing.

What's meaningless is when you celebrate Birthdays without putting any true feeling in. But your sending a card can mean a lot to the receiver, even if it doesn't mean something to you.

I'm not defending this "Middle Classness", I'm defending the ability to be genuinely nice without people regarding genuine greetings as automatically meaningless.

I think you're confusing your personal choices with genuine middle class ways of living.

Teshi wrote:

I give them presents when I see something they like even if it's not their birthday, I don't make a fuss about people's birthdays.

But this is just your choice, it's not a middle class thing to celebrate birthdays of the people you love! And I am always nice and I always mean it. If I said "good morning", it's because I mean it-- and I am also being nice. Even people I dislike I am nice to because I mean it.[/quote0
I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about people in general.

This may be offensive to you, but it sounds like you have a problem with your mother's way of living. You have decided that her mode of living is "middle class" and so you reject those things. That's perfectly valid. But it doesn't mean that celebrating birthdays is Middle Class or somehow meaningless in every family and for every person and everyone is just following the convention despite it meaning nothing. And it certainly doesn't mean that when you close the door you're planning the midnight knifing.

I'm amazed at the number of people on this forum who try to psycho-analyse me, I don't have mommy issues, daddy issues or any other issues. i look at the world and judge it the way I see it.
I didn't say that celebrating birthdays is Middle Class, I did say that all the insincere hype and the "i have to have a better party for Jane than the Joneses had for Peter" is a Middle Class stupidity.
I con't care if people celebrate birthdays, and I do celebrate the days that my loved ones were born, but I celebrate every day the same way, I just make a little more of their birthdays than normal days but i don't feel obliged to go out and buy some meaningless gift. I wait until i see something they would like and then buy it for them when I see it, maybe once a year maybe only once in five years.

What's meaningless is when you celebrate Birthdays without putting any true feeling in. But your sending a card can mean a lot to the receiver, even if it doesn't mean something to you.

See what I said above. I'm not against the celebration of birthdays, I am against the way people get stupid about it.

I'm not defending this "Middle Classness", I'm defending the ability to be genuinely nice without people regarding genuine greetings as automatically meaningless.

I think you're confusing your personal choices with genuine middle class ways of living.

I'm not confused. I'm an old woman who has lived for a long time and seen a lot of the way that people treat each other. And especially when they scratching and clawing their way to be better than their neighbours. Please don't take what I say generally, so personally.

Well, I just want you to know that the society you live in is not by any means representative of Middle Classes elsewhere, necessarily. To me, that sounds like the Canadian wealthy and even then I don't know anyone "clawing and scratching". Why bother? If that's what you want, you just work hard through school and get a nice job and if you've got what it takes you are as close as anyone needs to be to the top.

This thread is really, "the values of the society I live in". It's localized.

Also, I'm not giving you "Mommy issues", I'm just saying that you focused a lot of examples on your mother. I don't see why having issues with the way your parents go about life is such a big deal. Most people seem to have these issues to some extent. There are certain things my parents individually and as a pair do that drive me nuts and it's shaped the way I think about the world.

I don't really recognise your parody of middle classness among anyone I know in the UK, Agrippina. Although interestingly, we do have some good friends who are South African and they have described similar things, so I wonder if it's a particular cultural phenomenon.

I have to admit too that some of the "middle class values" you have described are most certainly values of mine, and not ones I feel any reason to be ashamed of. I believe in bringing up my children to nurture their curiosity and to be proud of doing their best. They don't have TVs or computers in their rooms because I believe there's a serious problem brewing with a whole generation of young people who are incapable of functioning for more than five minutes without being in front of some kind of screen or being "stimulated" by some kind of media. My kids watch films and play computer games, sure. But when they go to bed at night their room is a place for quiet reading and reflection.

We moved out of the area we used to live in, and to our current area, precisely so my son could go to a grammar school. However unlike your description, there's nothing particularly "posh" about that. The new area is actually equally working class and has many similar social problems - it just happens to be in a county that has grammar schools, and many of the ordinary kids from the local state primaries go to them. Don't forget that grammar schools were originally invented in order to boost the opportunities of bright, poorer kids. It's only because there are so few of them now that in many areas that intention has been swallowed up by middle class tutoring culture.

I wouldn't have a problem with my kids going to a comprehensive school but that has a lot to do with the area in which you live. In some ways the process by which you need to be able to afford an expensive house in a nice area to go to a decent comprehensive, is more stratifying than the grammar school system.

As for the old primary my son was in, there were 25 kids in his class and when I left him lining up in the mornings, there'd typically be between about 8-12 whose parents could actually be bothered getting them there on time. Go figure.

As far as I'm concerned that's unacceptable. But that's not because I'm a snob. I would never judge someone because of their accent or what they do for a living. It's because I value education and believe I have a duty to nurture my children. Anyone else who shares that basic value is welcome in my world, but I don't see why my childrens' upbringing should be compromised by the laziness of people who don't.

If that makes me MC, then MC IB!

Believe me I am all in favour of education and the more they get, the better for me. I'm not saying that children shouldn't be educated so maybe I should elaborate a little and try not to bring my mother or personal bias into it.

I've removed this, and I apologise, I sometimes write a load of whatever's in my mind without thinking. I didn't mean to be offensive. Please accept my apologies.

Agrippina wrote:i would like to talk about this subject.

By middle class values I mean rites of passage, the statistical number of children, a work ethic, being prepared for a fall-back career, getting married because it's expected of you, taking your kids to Sunday School, even formal schooling. Also included in this is the idea of :king and country" family genealogical line, the "right" address, conforming names, generally conforming to the 'rules' of society, and so on.

Where do you stand on these? Do you have some 'middle class' values? If so what are they?

King and Country, and bloodline, these are more upper-middle/upper class values.

The middle class thing is more about one's bank account, keeping up with the Jones', keeping up appearances, and - yup - conforming to the latest styles, fashions and fad diets.

I'm not really a fan of middle-class values, as is I suppose already clear.

Invictus_88 wrote:

Agrippina wrote:i would like to talk about this subject.

By middle class values I mean rites of passage, the statistical number of children, a work ethic, being prepared for a fall-back career, getting married because it's expected of you, taking your kids to Sunday School, even formal schooling. Also included in this is the idea of :king and country" family genealogical line, the "right" address, conforming names, generally conforming to the 'rules' of society, and so on.

Where do you stand on these? Do you have some 'middle class' values? If so what are they?

King and Country, and bloodline, these are more upper-middle/upper class values.

Did I use the term 'upper' class. Wrong of me, privileged is a better word.
Also not necessarily. The nouveau riche are more concerned with bloodlines these days. Note that the Royal Family who really are the most privileged people on the planet are inviting more and more 'Middle Class' people into their ranks.

The middle class thing is more about one's bank account, keeping up with the Jones', keeping up appearances, and - yup - conforming to the latest styles, fashions and fad diets.

I'm not really a fan of middle-class values, as is I suppose already clear.

Again, as I said, it depends, with the privileged class you have two distinct models, the old and the new money. Old money is gentler, kinder, less obsessed with material wealth except when it comes to the protection of the inherited estate. They will continue to use old technology,cars and so on, but the ones they use are, like their clothes really good value.

New money is more concerned with material wealth. So when you seen an upper class git behaving like a prat about people who aren't good enough for their esteemed company, chances are that they can trace their family back only a couple of hundred years at the most and that they married money to do that.
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Edit to remove further offending material.

Agrippina wrote:I've left a lot out but this is my summary taken from various notes made during my days of studying Sociology. Please help me expand on them.:

Can't help, sorry.

Your notes seem to me like a cartoon. They bear very little resemblance to any people I've ever met, or anything I've observed about human life and motivation, which is infinitely more complex, varied and paradoxical than that.

I have to admit I've never met any "obscenely wealthy" people, or even had much to do with those in the next category below. But while I have as much reason as anybody to be envious of their wealth, I still have no reason to believe that they are any more like your caricature than the people I have met - none of whom are like it at all.

There's also the question of what makes something a "class", as opposed to just a set of characteristics, which I don't think is very clear from your description.

I think, at least in the UK, most of us could recognise real people in our lives who meet the class definitions/stereotypes.

Beatsong wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I've left a lot out but this is my summary taken from various notes made during my days of studying Sociology. Please help me expand on them.:

Can't help, sorry.

Your notes seem to me like a cartoon. They bear very little resemblance to any people I've ever met, or anything I've observed about human life and motivation, which is infinitely more complex, varied and paradoxical than that.

I have to admit I've never met any "obscenely wealthy" people, or even had much to do with those in the next category below. But while I have as much reason as anybody to be envious of their wealth, I still have no reason to believe that they are any more like your caricature than the people I have met - none of whom are like it at all.

There's also the question of what makes something a "class", as opposed to just a set of characteristics, which I don't think is very clear from your description.

Fair enough.
I've lived among them all. I've known people from all the descriptions I've given through my life and I've known them from the US, England, SA and Europe, some more than others and as I said, I've also taken some information from my old Sociology notes.

These are not caricatures, I can assure you. People like I've described really exist.
I can't define what class distinctions really are because you know it when you see it. And i;m quite certain you can identify the sort of people who behave like savages in public or the sort who say "do you know who I am."

I don't want to talk about personal experience but I've met them all, the truly well-bred 'ladies' and the jumped up nobodies who would sell their children for the title 'lady' and I've met the savages who make me ashamed to be human and the really good down to earth types who don't see cleaning up a child's vomit as perfectly fine, even if they are mere bystanders.

The 'class' distinctions are becoming blurred, I noticed for instance that in Britain, particularly among the youngsters that the old 'verbal' class distinction is disappearing. It is a shame in some ways because some English accents are really lovely and it would be horrible if they were lost.

Also I put the nouveau riche obscenely wealthy types in a class of their own because these people can be really something. Paris Hilton and Brtiney Spears spring to mind. And you could probably say that some of the types who live in the suburbs and behave like divas could be the lower end of the scale of this class.

Look this is not a scientific exercise, it came about because I was irritated by the prissiness of one person I know and then devolved into a discussion about how this person's behaviour seems to fit the "Protestant work ethic" "middle class morality" type of person. So please ignore my tirade if it's annoying you and I apologise, I do not mean any offence by what I say, I am inclined to say what I think and to give honest observations and opinions. There is no malice intended. Besides, I'm sure that every one of us has a group of people who irritate, we can't possibly like every person or group of people we meet.

Post deleted.

Agrippina wrote:Sky News were talking about this during last week:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632135/What-class-are-you.html

I'm going to post the quiz here, in case the website moves it.

Christopher Howse
Published: 12:01AM BST 17 Apr 2007
Christopher Howse's tongue-in-cheek quiz
The sore questions of class are in the air again. Was Kate Middleton just too middle class for Prince William? Must the future Queen of England only be upper class? And just how easy is it to tell a person's class?

According to Daily Telegraph letter writer Andrew Baxter, you can tell instantly the class of people by using the car test: "A couple taking another couple out for a drive would sit themselves thus: working class, men in the front. Middle class, man with his own partner in the front. Upper class, man with the other partner in the front."
So which class are you? Settle the matter once and for all with a tongue-in-cheek quiz...
1 Has your house got:
a A name and number?
b A name of your choosing?
c A name from time immemorial?
2 Sitting over drinks, do you:
a Say "Cheers"?
b Say "Cheers" and clink glasses?
c Say nothing?
3 Are you more likely to take a seaside holiday in:
a Cancun?
b Scotland?
c The Maldives?
4 Would you follow the hunt:
a At a distance by car?
b With an anti-hunt placard?
c On your own horse?
5 At breakfast do you like:
a Bio yogurt?
b Pop-Tarts?
c Porridge?
6 Have you got:
a A patio?
b Decking?
c A terrace?
7 At your children's weddings, will male guests wear:
a Morning dress?
b Dinner jackets?
c Lounge suits?
8 Do you ask for the:
a Lavatory?
b Bathroom?
c Toilet?
9 Do you send your children to:
a An old public school?
b A church school near which you have moved?
c The local school?
10 After dinner, do you:
a Leave your napkin loosely on the table?
b Fold your napkin neatly?
c Roll your napkin and put it in a ring?
11 Do your children have:
a PlayStation 3?
b A dressing-up box?
c Trivial Pursuit?
12 If you can't hear a remark, do you say:
a What?
b Say again?
c Pardon?
13 If you want butter with your roll at dinner, do you:
a Cut it in half and butter it?
b Break it in half and butter it?
c Break it up and butter bits as you eat them?
14 Would you prefer to read:
a Heat?
b The Field?
c The World of Interiors?
15 Do you associate Jordan with:
a Breakfast cereal?
b Petra?
c Peter André?
THE ANSWERS
1 a 10, b 20, c 30; 2 a 20, b 10, c 30; 3 a 10, b 30, c 20; 4 a 10, b 20, c 30; 5 a 20, b 10, c 30; 6 a 20, b 10, c 30; 7 a 30, b 10, c 20; 8 a 30, b 20, c 10; 9 a 30, b 20, c 10; 10 a 30, b 10, c 20; 11 a 10, b 30, c 20; 12 a 30, b 10, c 20; 13 a 10, b 20, c 30; 14 a 10, b 30, c 20; 15 a 20, b 30, c 10.
If you scored:
Below 200 You are cheerfully lower-class.
200 to 300 You are uneasily middle-class.
300 to 440 You probably have a coat of arms.
450 You are the Duke of Devonshire.

I am the Duke of Devonshire; the other one must be a damned impostor. I shall send my Man around in the brougham to have words his Man.

Agrippina wrote:
Then there's the working class. Again, on a continuum.
These are on the negative side they are layabouts who take whatever they can get for nothing from the government and everybody else, they are aggressive, violent, angry and grasping. They live in squalor believe in the superiority of men and expect almost kinglike worship of their greatness when they actually do produce some income and it is their right to spend it on a day at a game, or drinking with their friends. When they socialise it's with their own kind, because they are suspicious of any culture that is even slightly different, and regard curry as exotic and "foreign." Some of these people stick to a routine about everything including the days on which they eat their meals, eggs on Monday, steak on Tuesday. And they live according to the rules that applied to their fathers. They are either totally against religion or fanatically religious and believe education is just 'posh' nonsense and will make their children think they are better than their fathers. The only woman in the family with any power is the mother=in-law, the father's mother. These neanderthals have just crept out of the cave and their idea of discipline is a "clip on the ear!" On the other end of the scale are the 'salt of the earth' types.

They've worked at their jobs forever and are humble about every salary increase or promotion. They don't seek to better themselves other than to get their kids the best education they can afford and aspire to have bankers and shop assistants in their families rather than cleaners and sanitation workers. The women work as hard as the men do but the men still don't help with the housework except to occasionally make tea or to take our the trash. They regard religion as either a very serious part of their lives or their wives do and they go along with what she wants because she has to be kept happy. They try to discipline their kids but worry that their kids are living among 'bad' types and may be influenced by them. They can't afford designer clothes so they make the best of what they can afford. These people's children rise to the middle classes, taking with the the good grounding they've had from their parents and the work their way to the top without high-flown aspirations of become pop stars. If these people are atheists, they tend to not talk about it to their more violent, religious neighbours.

Wow that's offensive.

shh wrote:

Agrippina wrote:
<snip>
Wow that's offensive.

I promise there's no offence intended. Pure observation.

Without doing the quiz (actually I tried but half of the questions even do not apply .. patio? wtf? or Jordan? with boobs!) I am a low life and damn proud of it!

Agrippina wrote:I promise there's no offence intended. Pure observation.

I'd check for selection bias.