Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

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Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#1  Postby The_Metatron » Jul 25, 2013 9:59 am

While reading the topic, School Refused Pupil Water On Hot Day Because Of Ramadan, a post by Cito di Pense caught my attention:

Cito di Pense wrote:
laklak wrote:
Shrunk wrote: I guess they worried it might make it look like they were mistreating their kids, or that Islam was a barbarous religion that risked the health of children.

They are.
It is.
It does.

Well, there you go, running smack up against the basic concepts of multiculturalism. The easy solution is that one culture does not impose its standards on another, and of course, the asymmetry we recognise here is that proselytising religions do not obey the principles of multiculturalism because they insist (at least) on respect for their traditions from people outside their circle.

Thousands of threads here are wasted reiterating that very general principle. Several contributors to this thread have no problem with other people's traditions, and then the proselytisers run off the rails by proselytising, including asking for 'recognition'.

The simplest solution to proselytising is to ask, metronomically, if necessary, "Yes, of course, but what has this to do with me?"

Including, naturally, people's precious fee-fees. If one takes obligatory empathy on board, one is well on the way to religion, which leads back to establishing standards for barbarism and mistreatment, which multiculturalism insists we may not judge.

Multiculturalism off the rails is just another religion-substitute.

At the risk of incorrectly paraphrasing, I think Cito isn't terribly keen on multiculturalism.

I tend to hold that idea to be accurate.

My working concept of multiculturalism is something along the lines of an established culture attempting to accept other cultures into it on a more or less equal footing.

I think this is doomed to varying degrees of failure, owing to the obvious and often dichotomous differences to be found across varying cultures. What is acceptable to one, for example, may be strictly forbidden in another. To think that different cultures that possess such differences can co-exist peacefully is, I think, wishful thinking.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#2  Postby Regina » Jul 25, 2013 11:03 am

My personal hobby-horse has been for a while that multiculturalism isn't so much a question of differing cultural norms, but of social class.
Of course, I can only speak for my part of the world, but here, few people have problems with Iranian doctors, Iraqui engineers, Russian nurses, Italian shopkeepers and Turkish teachers or politicians. And those who have are usually far right in their political inclinations.
The Syrian doctor will in all likelihood not attempt to slaughter a lamb on his balcony and simply toss his rubbish in the yard. The kids of the Turkish teacher will not try to make a living selling drugs, but get the best possible education, and just like their non-Turkish peers go to university. And: those people intermarry.
So to me difficulties in connection with multiculturalism are more often than not problems of social class than asssumed abstract cultural backgrounds.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#3  Postby Aern Rakesh » Jul 25, 2013 11:20 am

Regina wrote:My personal hobby-horse has been for a while that multiculturalism isn't so much a question of differing cultural norms, but of social class.
Of course, I can only speak for my part of the world, but here, few people have problems with Iranian doctors, Iraqui engineers, Russian nurses, Italian shopkeepers and Turkish teachers or politicians. And those who have are usually far right in their political inclinations.
The Syrian doctor will in all likelihood not attempt to slaughter a lamb on his balcony and simply toss his rubbish in the yard. The kids of the Turkish teacher will not try to make a living selling drugs, but get the best possible education, and just like their non-Turkish peers go to university. And: those people intermarry.
So to me difficulties in connection with multiculturalism are more often than not problems of social class than asssumed abstract cultural backgrounds.


I think I'd pretty much agree with this. Or at least the idea that a lot of 'anti-multiculturalism' is really a result of competition for jobs and other economic pressures.

But there's also a rampant fear of differentness which can even operate within relatively educated, middle-class communities. At least that was the case with my childhood neighbourhood, when the definition of a mixed marriage was a Protestant marrying a Catholic! (Britian is much more enlightened in this respect, at least that has been my experience.)

I do remember though there was this idea in the US of a 'melting pot', of all cultures eventually evolving into one 'American' culture. But over the years that has proven false, as individual cultural traits seem to persist. Perhaps because it is easier to feel part of a smaller, distinct group than one great amorphous mass of people?

I actually feel very much at home in London because most of the people I interact with are like me in the sense that they have come from somewhere else, either themselves or their parents.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#4  Postby tuco » Jul 25, 2013 11:34 am

What is called multiculturalism can be examined from various angles. Since majority here are Europeanslets talk about multiculturalism in European context. According to wiki multiculturalism is ethnic diversity not ideology, not another religion-substitute. However, multiculturalism can also be ideology, just like cosmopolitanism for example.

So in my opinion before debating multiculturalism we should distinguish which one we talk about. If about the fact that minorities of different cultural backgrounds, which do not need to be necessarily abstract, are growing in numbers or about the belief or notion that the so-called melting pot is preferred to monolithic ghettos when it comes to how societies we live in, and to certain extent the globalized world we live in, ought to be organized.

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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#5  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 25, 2013 11:37 am

Multiculturalism was declared dead here.

It has not worked and will not work because of the attitude of certain new members of this society.

We are expected to accept their despicable treatment of members of their group but any requirements we make they dont want to meet.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#6  Postby tuco » Jul 25, 2013 11:41 am

What is dead? European nations have such low population growth through births that intake of immigrants is not only essential for our economies but maybe even necessary for European nations to survive in the long run. In other words, people from all over the world are coming in, will be coming in, and unless we stop them all I do not see how can this fact be dead.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#7  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 25, 2013 12:01 pm

tuco wrote:What is dead? European nations have such low population growth through births that intake of immigrants is not only essential for our economies but maybe even necessary for European nations to survive in the long run. In other words, people from all over the world are coming in, will be coming in, and unless we stop them all I do not see how can this fact be dead.


They are coming into oursociety.

No political party these days supports the idea of multiculturalism. They are not essential for our economy. The fact they got in was a mistake made back in the '60's. It will not be made again.

Their culture is now having to adapt to ours otherwise it is byebye. The compulsory language and cictizenship exams are making many think twice before they come here.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#8  Postby HomerJay » Jul 25, 2013 12:03 pm

tuco wrote:What is dead? European nations have such low population growth through births that intake of immigrants is not only essential for our economies but maybe even necessary for European nations to survive in the long run. In other words, people from all over the world are coming in, will be coming in, and unless we stop them all I do not see how can this fact be dead.

multiculturalism <> immigration
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#9  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 25, 2013 12:06 pm

HomerJay wrote:
tuco wrote:What is dead? European nations have such low population growth through births that intake of immigrants is not only essential for our economies but maybe even necessary for European nations to survive in the long run. In other words, people from all over the world are coming in, will be coming in, and unless we stop them all I do not see how can this fact be dead.

multiculturalism <> immigration


Exactly Homer. :thumbup:
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#10  Postby Aern Rakesh » Jul 25, 2013 12:13 pm

HomerJay wrote:
tuco wrote:What is dead? European nations have such low population growth through births that intake of immigrants is not only essential for our economies but maybe even necessary for European nations to survive in the long run. In other words, people from all over the world are coming in, will be coming in, and unless we stop them all I do not see how can this fact be dead.

multiculturalism <> immigration


What does <> mean? Honest question. It's not a mathematical symbol I'm familiar with...
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#11  Postby Precambrian Rabbi » Jul 25, 2013 12:17 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
tuco wrote:What is dead? European nations have such low population growth through births that intake of immigrants is not only essential for our economies but maybe even necessary for European nations to survive in the long run. In other words, people from all over the world are coming in, will be coming in, and unless we stop them all I do not see how can this fact be dead.

multiculturalism <> immigration


What does <> mean? Honest question. It's not a mathematical symbol I'm familiar with...

Not equal to. (The combination of "<" is less than and ">" is more than. IOW anything except equal.)
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#12  Postby Sendraks » Jul 25, 2013 12:22 pm

Coming from a nation which has been multi-cultural for quite some time, I think the reality is that it is an incredibly drawn out process and some of the results can only be seen in the long term. Multi-cultural is not, to my mind, bunging a whole load of different cultures into a single nation, but the long term product of that, i.e. the society which emerges decades or centuries later.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#13  Postby Aern Rakesh » Jul 25, 2013 12:26 pm

Precambrian Rabbi wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
tuco wrote:What is dead? European nations have such low population growth through births that intake of immigrants is not only essential for our economies but maybe even necessary for European nations to survive in the long run. In other words, people from all over the world are coming in, will be coming in, and unless we stop them all I do not see how can this fact be dead.

multiculturalism <> immigration


What does <> mean? Honest question. It's not a mathematical symbol I'm familiar with...

Not equal to. (The combination of "<" is less than and ">" is more than. IOW anything except equal.)


Thanks. I suppose there's no way to insert the ≠ sign in the forum without copying and pasting it from another app.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#14  Postby Precambrian Rabbi » Jul 25, 2013 12:52 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:
Precambrian Rabbi wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
multiculturalism <> immigration


What does <> mean? Honest question. It's not a mathematical symbol I'm familiar with...

Not equal to. (The combination of "<" is less than and ">" is more than. IOW anything except equal.)


Thanks. I suppose there's no way to insert the ≠ sign in the forum without copying and pasting it from another app.

OT: Wikipedia has a list of symbols commonly used for unequal (under its entry on "equal sign"), most of which are 'plain text friendly' and a number of which I have seen used here, particularly =/= and !=.

<> seems the most natural to me; I'm pretty sure that's what I was taught and school and, being a heavy excel user, I regularly use the expression as such in formulas. I also find some satisfaction in the bold logic of it. If n<y and/or n>y then it can be deduced that n may be anything at all except y.
Last edited by Precambrian Rabbi on Jul 25, 2013 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#15  Postby HomerJay » Jul 25, 2013 12:54 pm

Regina wrote:My personal hobby-horse has been for a while that multiculturalism isn't so much a question of differing cultural norms, but of social class.

Multiculturalism is like an onion with many different layers, the social norms are (relatively) easily absorbed by the majoritarian culture.

So where the exact definition doesn't cause many problems, it is less urgent to consider it.

The problems come when the different cultural norms become associated with a particular identity group and that group then makes specific demands of the State or the majoritarian culture.

In the UK it's no exageration to say that 99% of the problems with multiculturalism have come from muslims and Islam.

Such that, in the last 10 years we have moved from models of Multiculturalism to Social Cohesion to new forms of Interculturalism.

If it wasn't for the problems caused by the muslim communities we would probably still be talking about multiculturalism but that has become tainted by it's use by muslims to further political goals.

So 'Multiculturalism' was a method for enabling muslim identity politics, 'Social Cohesion' was a method to stop muslims from blowing us up, and 'Interculturalism' is a method for reducing the power of the muslim identity politics lobby.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#16  Postby mattthomas » Jul 25, 2013 12:56 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:
Precambrian Rabbi wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
multiculturalism <> immigration


What does <> mean? Honest question. It's not a mathematical symbol I'm familiar with...

Not equal to. (The combination of "<" is less than and ">" is more than. IOW anything except equal.)


Thanks. I suppose there's no way to insert the ≠ sign in the forum without copying and pasting it from another app.

Is that the old British Railways logo?
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#17  Postby Varangian » Jul 25, 2013 1:03 pm

When multiculturalism means that (western) countries are expected to concede to imported bigotry and backwardsness, it is wrong, e.g. accepting sharia laws and the like. The expression "when in Rome, do like the Romans" shouldn't be supplanted with "when in Rome, do like the Saudis"... While civilization is a process, we should avoid taking steps back by accomodating for cultures that aren't as advanced on the road of human rights, democracy, etc.
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#18  Postby Aern Rakesh » Jul 25, 2013 1:11 pm

Precambrian Rabbi wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
Precambrian Rabbi wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:

What does <> mean? Honest question. It's not a mathematical symbol I'm familiar with...

Not equal to. (The combination of "<" is less than and ">" is more than. IOW anything except equal.)


Thanks. I suppose there's no way to insert the ≠ sign in the forum without copying and pasting it from another app.

OT: Wikipedia has a list of symbols commonly used for unequal (under its entry on "equal sign"), most of which are 'plain text friendly' and a number of which I have seen used here, particularly =/= and !=.

<> seems the most natural to me; I'm pretty sure that's what I was taught and school and, being a heavy excel user, I regularly use the expression as such in formulas. I also find some satisfaction in the bold logic of it. If n<y and/or n>y then it can be deduced that n may be anything at all except y.


Ah, yes, I've seen =/=. But the one I pasted in was how we did "not equal" in school. I honestly had never seen the <> version.
mattthomas wrote:Is that the old British Railways logo?


You mean this?
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#19  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 25, 2013 1:15 pm

Or the Dutch Rail logo: Image
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Re: Multiculturalism. What does it mean to you?

#20  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 25, 2013 4:37 pm

Have to agree with Regina and Sendraks.
Will put in my 2 cents when Im back home and have acces to a PC and stable connection.
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