Obese lose up to eight years of life

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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#21  Postby Emmeline » Jan 07, 2015 12:07 pm

Fallible wrote:
Emmeline wrote:It's the "decades of ill health" that pisses me off because they're a massive drain on the NHS and welfare budget. Sometimes I feel like I've worked hard all my life just to see my taxes supporting idle, feckless parasites. Apologies if I sound like a Daily Mail reader but you don't have to be one to feel angry about pathetic, self-indulgent scroungers when there aren't enough hospital beds or support systems for everyone else.

I'm not talking about those who become obese due to disability or medication. I mean the ones who've "eaten all the pies" and not exercised.


I'm a bit surprised to read this from you to be completely honest. I expected more compassion, and some understanding that even if obesity is a result of eating all the pies, there is often a reason that the pies get eaten which goes beyond 'they're just lazy slobs', which involves mental health issues. Did Katie Hopkins hack your account?


I surprise myself too sometimes but I'm feeling very grumpy at the moment about how some people have to battle to get help while others get everything. One of my cousins recently died of MS, from which he'd been suffering for several years. He worked hard all his life but when he needed help with carers & mobility, he was subjected to endless forms, interviews & extra medicals. It was exhausting and humiliating for him & his wife.

Meanwhile, there are people who have never worked or paid taxes living off the rest of us. Within that group are some morbidly obese people who have no intention of trying to be healthier and instead claim benefits for carers, cleaners, mobility scooters etc. These are the feckless, idle scroungers I'm pissed off about.

I'm more than happy for my taxes to support people with addictions (including food) & with health programmes to improve their lives. However, for those who won't even make an effort to try & be healthier, I don't agree with pandering to their lifestyle choice by providing them with free carers & equipment. If that makes me sound like Katie Hopkins then it's embarrassing but it really is how I feel about it.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#22  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 07, 2015 12:44 pm

Emmeline wrote:Meanwhile, there are people who have never worked or paid taxes living off the rest of us.


What they have is a considerable experience with The System which they get things which an inexperienced person would never achieve.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#23  Postby laklak » Jan 07, 2015 2:09 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Emmeline wrote:Meanwhile, there are people who have never worked or paid taxes living off the rest of us.


What they have is a considerable experience with The System which they get things which an inexperienced person would never achieve.


Yeah, it's their job. I've seen scroungers spend as much time scamming the system as anyone else does working an actual job.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#24  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 07, 2015 3:17 pm

laklak wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Emmeline wrote:Meanwhile, there are people who have never worked or paid taxes living off the rest of us.


What they have is a considerable experience with The System which they get things which an inexperienced person would never achieve.


Yeah, it's their job. I've seen scroungers spend as much time scamming the system as anyone else does working an actual job.


It reaches into the realms of sport for them.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#25  Postby laklak » Jan 07, 2015 3:53 pm

Several of Mrs. Lak's family are scroungers. One has 4 or 5 kids (can't remember exact number), hasn't worked a single day in her life. She's always got a fresh manicure and hairdo. It amazes me that people can get away with it for as long as they do. Even with the anti-benefit stance of the Torydems they still manage not to work.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#26  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 07, 2015 3:56 pm

laklak wrote:Several of Mrs. Lak's family are scroungers. One has 4 or 5 kids (can't remember exact number), hasn't worked a single day in her life. She's always got a fresh manicure and hairdo. It amazes me that people can get away with it for as long as they do. Even with the anti-benefit stance of the Torydems they still manage not to work.


The British system has so many levels and with the over stretched staff you can easily move around without anyone knowing.

What is down on paper and what is reality tend to be worlds apart.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#27  Postby I'm With Stupid » Jan 07, 2015 10:15 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
laklak wrote:Already does here. They'll load your premium based on what you do in your free time. Scuba diving, skydiving, rock climbing, driving race cars, flying a small aircraft, all those will increase your cost. Your habits cost you, too. You'll pay a lot more if you're a smoker, for example, and your BMI is part of the premium calculation.

I don't know why this would be unacceptable, the same thing happens with every other form of insurance. A Ferrari costs a shitload more to insure than a Sentra, a big home costs more to insure than a small flat. It's considered perfectly normal to charge someone more for health insurance if they're older, so why not if they're overweight or engage in a risky hobby?


I agree that life style should be part of formula for calculating insurance costs. If somebody wants to be a dare devil that's up him/her but their insurance should reflect it. The same if somebody weighs 200 kg. and thinks it is normal that should be also reflected in the insurance costs.

Sounds good in theory, but in reality it means that poorer people (who are far more likely to be obese) are going to get hit with increased premiums, while richer people get lower premiums, further increasing inequality, which is one of the major causes of obesity in the first place. Insurance doesn't actually make judgments about blame. I'd pay more for insurance if I'd had a serious condition, regardless of whether I caused the condition myself. And with obesity, many people are obese long before they can reasonably be considered responsible for their actions.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#28  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Jan 07, 2015 11:31 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
laklak wrote:Already does here. They'll load your premium based on what you do in your free time. Scuba diving, skydiving, rock climbing, driving race cars, flying a small aircraft, all those will increase your cost. Your habits cost you, too. You'll pay a lot more if you're a smoker, for example, and your BMI is part of the premium calculation.

I don't know why this would be unacceptable, the same thing happens with every other form of insurance. A Ferrari costs a shitload more to insure than a Sentra, a big home costs more to insure than a small flat. It's considered perfectly normal to charge someone more for health insurance if they're older, so why not if they're overweight or engage in a risky hobby?


I agree that life style should be part of formula for calculating insurance costs. If somebody wants to be a dare devil that's up him/her but their insurance should reflect it. The same if somebody weighs 200 kg. and thinks it is normal that should be also reflected in the insurance costs.

OK with some things. But there is increasing evidence that stuff like cancer is mainly about bad luck, and poor lifestyle may have less effect than we think. I am not saying high risk activities should not be factored into insurance premiums, but I see a danger of it becoming contaminated with political correctness. We don't like people doing activity X, so fuck 'em, make them pay more for insurance.
The irony of this is that while medicine is becoming more personalized [because many medical conditions are complex traits with multiple causation and variation], insurance is lumping people in classes. This process can sometimes become bigoted, such as in anti-gun laws and smoking legislation. This is because no matter what a person does, the law has to consider all equally. The responsible gun owner or the responsible smoker is assumed to be an anti-social idiot. Likewise with 'fatties" "Oh, he is a fatty so he has no self-discipline" crap.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#29  Postby I'm With Stupid » Jan 08, 2015 12:36 am

It's also worth mentioning that the "risky" activities that people do are often the same things keeping them fit and healthy. So are you going to introduce an extra premium for people who sit at home watching TV all day as well?
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#30  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Jan 08, 2015 1:05 am

I'm With Stupid wrote:It's also worth mentioning that the "risky" activities that people do are often the same things keeping them fit and healthy. So are you going to introduce an extra premium for people who sit at home watching TV all day as well?

Or for people who have to work long hours in front of a computer screen. Even regular exercise does not totally compensate for the damage done. Even two or three hours a day, seven days a week will not stop the rot. Sitting for long periods, equals premature death and failing health. Exercise helps, but nowhere near enough.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#31  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 08, 2015 1:18 am

Health is too different from one person to another to make generalisations about healthcare costs based on lifestyle. Some people will spend their entire adult lives fat, die at ninety-three and have never suffered ill health resulting from the weight. Some extreme athletes will never dislocate a joint much less become a paraplegic. Other people who seemingly do everything right will be riddled with disease and a shortened lifespan.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#32  Postby epepke » Jan 08, 2015 1:50 am

People who tell them they are obese are also at risk of an early death.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#33  Postby Tbickle » Jan 08, 2015 2:58 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Health is too different from one person to another to make generalisations about healthcare costs based on lifestyle. Some people will spend their entire adult lives fat, die at ninety-three and have never suffered ill health resulting from the weight. Some extreme athletes will never dislocate a joint much less become a paraplegic. Other people who seemingly do everything right will be riddled with disease and a shortened lifespan.


This is just simply not true. Not only is there a tremendous amount of data to support that excess weight is strongly correlated to a shorter life span, it is directly linked to various debilitating and deadly diseases. This line of argument is often used by the HAES supporters and is just factually incorrect.

I will agree that weight is not the sole factor in determining health of an individual, but excess body fat is a contributing factor to many cardiovascular issues, diabetes, and even cancer. An individual in a healthy weight range will have less suceptibility to certain diseases than the exact same person who happens to be overweight or obese.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#34  Postby epepke » Jan 08, 2015 3:22 am

Tbickle wrote:This is just simply not true. Not only is there a tremendous amount of data to support that excess weight is strongly correlated to a shorter life span, it is directly linked to various debilitating and deadly diseases. This line of argument is often used by the HAES supporters and is just factually incorrect.

I will agree that weight is not the sole factor in determining health of an individual, but excess body fat is a contributing factor to many cardiovascular issues, diabetes, and even cancer. An individual in a healthy weight range will have less suceptibility to certain diseases than the exact same person who happens to be overweight or obese.


I know a lot of people who suffer a lot from obesity. But...

I'm an insulin-dependent diabetic.
I'm diabetic because I had three bouts of pancreatitis.
I had the pancreatitis because there was something wrong with my gall bladder, which the surgeon said was "rotten."
It's most likely that my gall bladder started to go bad as the result of an effort to lose weight and get into shape.
Oh, and a 900 ml pancreatic cyst later caused me to get so thin I looked like a concentration camp victim.

Now, I'm just one guy, of course, and this is anecdote, but...

Only on the third presentation was the cause of my pancreatitis properly diagnosed.
One of my weekend attending physicians told me that he didn't really trust the treatment for pancreatitis, as it hadn't changes since the 1950s.
I've never seen a call for participants for a study, let alone a study, for something remotely like that.

It is, of course, best to go with available scientific evidence, but there is also a lot missing, so I don't think that declaring what is "just simply not true" is warranted.

Now, I wear pants with a size 36 waist and, with a 46 inch chest, I'm pretty hot for a middle-aged guy. Still, I think I'd enjoy being able to feel my big toes.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#35  Postby smudge » Jan 08, 2015 7:53 am

Emmeline wrote:

I surprise myself too sometimes but I'm feeling very grumpy at the moment about how some people have to battle to get help while others get everything. One of my cousins recently died of MS, from which he'd been suffering for several years. He worked hard all his life but when he needed help with carers & mobility, he was subjected to endless forms, interviews & extra medicals. It was exhausting and humiliating for him & his wife.



"Get everything?"
Emmeline I am stunned to read this having admired many of your posts.
Have you any fucking idea how hard it is for people who are seriously obese, perhaps with psychological or emotional causes, to get help and support? By "get everything" do you mean "get" all the short sighted judgmental inaccurate assumptions and personal abuse from people who should know better? Do you mean that they "get" the joy of discomfort, illness, and constant embarrassment because of their physical condition? Or do you mean "get" the appalling lack of support in terms of being bounced from department to department to waiting list to waiting list in the hope of trying to access mental health services and assessment which underlies their obesity?
A shame about your cousin. Some empathy may be in order. There are people who suffer similar "exhausting", "frustrating", difficulties as your relative because of other health issues. Like obesity for example.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#36  Postby Fallible » Jan 08, 2015 8:08 am

Emmeline wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Emmeline wrote:It's the "decades of ill health" that pisses me off because they're a massive drain on the NHS and welfare budget. Sometimes I feel like I've worked hard all my life just to see my taxes supporting idle, feckless parasites. Apologies if I sound like a Daily Mail reader but you don't have to be one to feel angry about pathetic, self-indulgent scroungers when there aren't enough hospital beds or support systems for everyone else.

I'm not talking about those who become obese due to disability or medication. I mean the ones who've "eaten all the pies" and not exercised.


I'm a bit surprised to read this from you to be completely honest. I expected more compassion, and some understanding that even if obesity is a result of eating all the pies, there is often a reason that the pies get eaten which goes beyond 'they're just lazy slobs', which involves mental health issues. Did Katie Hopkins hack your account?

I surprise myself too sometimes but I'm feeling very grumpy at the moment about how some people have to battle to get help while others get everything. One of my cousins recently died of MS, from which he'd been suffering for several years. He worked hard all his life but when he needed help with carers & mobility, he was subjected to endless forms, interviews & extra medicals. It was exhausting and humiliating for him & his wife.



Meanwhile, there are people who have never worked or paid taxes living off the rest of us. Within that group are some morbidly obese people who have no intention of trying to be healthier and instead claim benefits for carers, cleaners, mobility scooters etc. These are the feckless, idle scroungers I'm pissed off about.

I'm more than happy for my taxes to support people with addictions (including food) & with health programmes to improve their lives. However, for those who won't even make an effort to try & be healthier, I don't agree with pandering to their lifestyle choice by providing them with free carers & equipment. If that makes me sound like Katie Hopkins then it's embarrassing but it really is how I feel about it.


I was going to respond at length but to be honest I'm not sure what to say to you.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#37  Postby Emmeline » Jan 08, 2015 8:26 am

I truly am sorry to have disappointed or surprised some people with my posts on this topic. As I said before, sometimes I surprise myself at how angry I feel about those obese people who won't try to help themselves. Maybe I'm just becoming a lot less tolerant as I get older and have more people around me becoming ill & disabled who struggle to get the help they need.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#38  Postby Fallible » Jan 08, 2015 8:35 am

The people you are talking about are a small subsection of obese people who aren't that way through disability or medication. It's not fair to just declare them all idle, feckless parasites. And to be frank I'd be more than a little surprised to discover that none of the people who just sit around being fat and getting 'everything' are unhappy with their predicament. Learned helplessness is one explanatory phenomenon you might want to consider.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#39  Postby smudge » Jan 08, 2015 9:17 am

Emmeline wrote:I truly am sorry to have disappointed or surprised some people with my posts on this topic. As I said before, sometimes I surprise myself at how angry I feel about those obese people who won't try to help themselves. Maybe I'm just becoming a lot less tolerant as I get older and have more people around me becoming ill & disabled who struggle to get the help they need.



"some' people with all sorts of conditions can't be bothered to seek help or in some way contribute to their condition getting worse. This may include those who are obese, who have an addiction, who have cancer, etc.
Some obese people try very very hard to get help and treatment. Some obese people are "ill people who struggle to get the help they need". Perhaps some obese people are lazy fuckers with a death wish, who knows. But so are many other sub sections of groups with other health issues.
Clearly you don't have anyone in your family or social circle that struggles with obesity/food issues. I do. It is surely not difficult to grasp that obesity is often a mental health issue, that mental health services are stretched and patchy, that these issues are complicated and time consuming to treat, that sufferers truly suffer, that sufferers deserve compassion, that the limits of your personal family experience is no excuse for lack of empathy.
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Re: Obese lose up to eight years of life

#40  Postby Emmeline » Jan 08, 2015 9:24 am

smudge wrote:
Clearly you don't have anyone in your family or social circle that struggles with obesity/food issues. I do. It is surely not difficult to grasp that obesity is often a mental health issue, that mental health services are stretched and patchy, that these issues are complicated and time consuming to treat, that sufferers truly suffer, that sufferers deserve compassion, that the limits of your personal family experience is no excuse for lack of empathy.


I do have people in my family & friends circle who struggle with obesity but they all go to work, pay taxes & make efforts to improve their health. They aren't the people who I'm angry about.
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