Potential developments in human society

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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#21  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 1:55 am

Dynalon wrote:
Thommo wrote:Yes of course I remember that I said I'd never heard of a humanist saying it.


OK. This is what I want to focus on. Whether you have heard of it or not, a very prominent humanist (not even just that, really, many have said this) said that all children are "born scientists". I don't agree. Most children are not born scientists. Furthermore, juvenile human curiosity towards the outside world, which tends to fade away altogether in puberty, is not enough at all. So, the real question here is whether you object to creating "born scientists" and whether you object to inducing such qualities in those who are already well beyond the womb with neurotechnology and the like. Here I am asking you and not just assuming what you think. So?


I don't care. It's a flowery metaphor. I just don't care.

If I had previously cared, having to explain half a dozen times why I'm answering you instead of some dead bloke I'm not talking to surely would have bored me out of that caring.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#22  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 03, 2018 2:02 am

Dynalon wrote:
Is there no ideology that you are most closely affiliated with? That seems hard to believe.

I find most ideologues feel this way.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#23  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 2:05 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Is there no ideology that you are most closely affiliated with? That seems hard to believe.

I find most ideologues feel this way.


Yes, but can you tell me why you don't live in Upper Heyford?

Or to put it another way I don't see why you want to live wherever you live rather than there. Can you explain?
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#24  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 2:08 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Looks like straw to me. "Be totally divided" and "be borg" aren't your only two options.


You're welcome to come up with some sort of intermediary but be aware that it might not be able to compete effectively with one of the extremes you mentioned. And on that note, how about a paper from a NASA scientist / historian?

http://avsport.org/IAA/abst2006/IAC-06-A4.2.01.pdf

Cultural evolution takes place in many directions, but in sorting priorities I adopt what I refer to as the Intelligence Principle: the maintenance, improvement and perpetuation of knowledge and intelligence is the central driving force of cultural evolution, and that to the extent intelligence can be improved, it will be improved. Applying this principle to life in the universe, extraterrestrials will have sought the best way to improve their intelligence, and may have long ago advanced beyond flesh-and-blood to artificial intelligence, constituting a postbiological universe. MacGowan and Ordway (1966), Davies (1995) and Shostak (1998) have broached this subject, but it has not been given the attention it is due from its foundation in cultural evolution. Nor has the idea of a postbiological universe been carried to its logical conclusion, including a careful analysis of the implications for SETI. I. SETI scientists, social scientists, and experts in AI (such as Hans Moravec, who has spoken of a postbiological Earth in the next several generations) should consider the strengths and weaknesses of this new paradigm.


The most relevant clause:

The maintenance, improvement and perpetuation of knowledge and intelligence is the central driving force of cultural evolution, and that to the extent intelligence can be improved, it will be improved.


Nothing was mentioned here about "democracy", "freedom" or "individuality". And is it clear to you that any of these serve the Intelligence Principle? Me neither.

"When your Captain first approached us, we suspected that an agreement with humans would prove impossible to maintain. You are erratic, conflicted, disorganized. Every decision is debated, every action questioned. Every individual entitled to their own small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your undoing."

Etc etc etc.

Thommo wrote:I don't care. It's a flowery metaphor. I just don't care.


It's not just a "flowery metaphor". It's something that many believe quite literally. And they are wrong for doing so.

Thommo wrote:If I had previously cared, having to explain half a dozen times why I'm answering you instead of some dead bloke I'm not talking to surely would have bored me out of that caring.


The "dead bloke" in question represents humanism far better than I—or likely anyone else here—can, and that's what really matters.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#25  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 2:10 am

I'm not sure you've quite got the meaning of "I don't care" there.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#26  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 03, 2018 2:11 am

Thommo wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Is there no ideology that you are most closely affiliated with? That seems hard to believe.

I find most ideologues feel this way.


Yes, but can you tell me why you don't live in Upper Heyford?

Or to put it another way I don't see why you want to live wherever you live rather than there. Can you explain?

It would be most efficient if I lived there. Alas, I enjoy things. Enjoying things will be the undoing of humankind.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#27  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 2:14 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Thommo wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Is there no ideology that you are most closely affiliated with? That seems hard to believe.

I find most ideologues feel this way.


Yes, but can you tell me why you don't live in Upper Heyford?

Or to put it another way I don't see why you want to live wherever you live rather than there. Can you explain?

It would be most efficient if I lived there. Alas, I enjoy things. Enjoying things will be the undoing of humankind.


Meh. Resistance is futile. :beer:
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#28  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 03, 2018 2:19 am

Dynalon wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Looks like straw to me. "Be totally divided" and "be borg" aren't your only two options.


You're welcome to come up with some sort of intermediary but be aware that it might not be able to compete effectively with one of the extremes you mentioned.

I'd say literally any intermediary would be better. Not sure what you mean by them competing effectively.

Dynalon wrote:
And on that note, how about a paper from a NASA scientist / historian?
...
Nothing was mentioned here about "democracy", "freedom" or "individuality". And is it clear to you that any of these serve the Intelligence Principle? Me neither.

Not entirely sure why I should give a shit about the "Intelligence Principle". What has it accomplished? Or is this just an argument from authority?

Dynalon wrote:
"When your Captain first approached us, we suspected that an agreement with humans would prove impossible to maintain. You are erratic, conflicted, disorganized. Every decision is debated, every action questioned. Every individual entitled to their own small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your undoing."

Etc etc etc.

You should watch to the end of the episode sometime.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#29  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 2:23 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
"When your Captain first approached us, we suspected that an agreement with humans would prove impossible to maintain. You are erratic, conflicted, disorganized. Every decision is debated, every action questioned. Every individual entitled to their own small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your undoing."

Etc etc etc.

You should watch to the end of the episode sometime.


Oh hells no. What Voyager did to the borg was unforgiveable. The writers didn't get the concept at all. Unity was good, but there's no way anyone should watch to the end of Scorpion, it's just lazy (also one of the worst culprits for Janeway's radically altering personality and values from one script to the next that marred the whole series).

To be fair I, Hugh and Descent weren't a whole lot better.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#30  Postby Hermit » May 03, 2018 2:28 am

Thommo wrote:I don't believe I've either expressed the goal of "global eusociality", nor seen it defined

Never having heard of the word, I looked it up.
Apparently it's the highest level of organization of animal sociality, featuring "a division of labor into reproductive and non-reproductive groups" and a "division of labor [which] creates specialized behavioral groups within an animal society which are sometimes called castes. Eusociality is distinguished from all other social systems because individuals of at least one caste usually lose the ability to perform at least one behavior characteristic of individuals in another caste." If reason leads to that kind of society (which I dispute), it can fuck right off. Leave eusociality to termites, bees and ants.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


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God just exists
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#31  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 2:29 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:I'd say literally any intermediary would be better.


Why?

SafeAsMilk wrote:Not sure what you mean by them competing effectively.


Very much like the global eusocial colony of the Argentine ants. Where they go, they tend to leave even other ant species that are relatively capable of acting as a unit utterly blown the fuck out. Would you look at it?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/08 ... the-world/

SafeAsMilk wrote:Not entirely sure why I should give a shit about the "Intelligence Principle".


You should give a shit because, if you don't, other people and nations will, and you'll end up in the same position as native ants vis à vis Argentine ants. Not a good place to be in at all!

SafeAsMilk wrote:You should watch to the end of the episode sometime.


I did, and when it was all said and done, Seven of Nine never reverted to "Annika Hansen" and later freely admitted, concerning the Borg, that "the lure of perfection is powerful". There is something to be said for that!
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#32  Postby Hermit » May 03, 2018 2:35 am

Dynalon wrote:Image

Sagan is exactly right. Every newborn babe starts off as a naïve inductivist, looking at what happens around him/her, then formulating theories based on his/her observations. As he/she grows up, grown ups inhibit the process and replace knowledge gained through it with received knowledge. It's called "schooling".
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#33  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 03, 2018 2:36 am

Thommo wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
"When your Captain first approached us, we suspected that an agreement with humans would prove impossible to maintain. You are erratic, conflicted, disorganized. Every decision is debated, every action questioned. Every individual entitled to their own small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your undoing."

Etc etc etc.

You should watch to the end of the episode sometime.


Oh hells no. What Voyager did to the borg was unforgiveable. The writers didn't get the concept at all. Unity was good, but there's no way anyone should watch to the end of Scorpion, it's just lazy (also one of the worst culprits for Janeway's radically altering personality and values from one script to the next that marred the whole series).

To be fair I, Hugh and Descent weren't a whole lot better.

Uh oh, I'm out of my Star Trek depth here. I thought that quote was from this one episode of TNG I saw where they ran into the borg, for the first time I thought. I seem to remember them getting their ass kicked at the end, something about not being so predictable?
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#34  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 2:37 am

Hermit wrote:
Thommo wrote:I don't believe I've either expressed the goal of "global eusociality", nor seen it defined

Never having heard of the word, I looked it up.
Apparently it's the highest level of organization of animal sociality, featuring "a division of labor into reproductive and non-reproductive groups" and a "division of labor [which] creates specialized behavioral groups within an animal society which are sometimes called castes. Eusociality is distinguished from all other social systems because individuals of at least one caste usually lose the ability to perform at least one behavior characteristic of individuals in another caste." If reason leads to that kind of society (which I dispute), it can fuck right off. Leave eusociality to termites, bees and ants.


Thank you for an informative reply.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#35  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 2:37 am

Thommo wrote:Meh. Resistance is futile. :beer:


"We've finally given everyone what they claimed to want, though it looks they initially didn't want it."
"Even so, something remains."
"Yes, something remains."
"What is it?"

Image

"We have our work cut out for us."
"Together?"
"Together."

^ Much better than empty platitudes about the "pale blue dot"
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#36  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 2:42 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Uh oh, I'm out of my Star Trek depth here. I thought that quote was from this one episode of TNG I saw where they ran into the borg, for the first time I thought. I seem to remember them getting their ass kicked at the end, something about not being so predictable?


Nah, the borg don't talk or explain themselves at first, they are the implacable enemy. Incomprehensible, alien and having no common ground to discuss with humans.

That quote is from Voyager, by which time they get knocked off by the tens of thousands by a federation crew of a couple of hundred over and over again, and instead of being a collective mind are in fact just space ants, who are headed by a queen who is every bit as individual as humans are.

To be fair, I was only messing about, although the characterisation of the Borg in that episode is shit and Janeway is undergoing one of her many weird personality transplants it's actually quite watchable. I wouldn't look to it for some of the great acting or philosophy that makes Star Trek stand out in cultural memory like it does (like the one where Picard is tortured or the one where they conduct a drumhead into rooting out "traitors" in starfleet).
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#37  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 2:44 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Uh oh, I'm out of my Star Trek depth here. I thought that quote was from this one episode of TNG I saw where they ran into the borg, for the first time I thought. I seem to remember them getting their ass kicked at the end, something about not being so predictable?


The first episode where the Borg were encountered was in Q Who? in TNG and it makes me think of nothing so much as neurotechnological systems that are being developed for military purposes, not solely to restore function to those who have lost the ability to speak or walk or think from having rolled over an IED, but to put the unit in "military unit" by, for example, letting members of a tactical formation hear each other's thoughts. Obviously the goal of achieving tactical victory is only one out of many that can be achieved by this technology and many others can be achieved in much the same framework. From there, much, much more can be achieved.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#38  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 03, 2018 2:45 am

Dynalon wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:I'd say literally any intermediary would be better.


Why?

Because I have no interest in being either totally divided or the borg. I enjoy being autonomous, and I enjoy working with other people.

SafeAsMilk wrote:Not sure what you mean by them competing effectively.


Very much like the global eusocial colony of the Argentine ants. Where they go, they tend to leave even other ant species that are relatively capable of acting as a unit utterly blown the fuck out. Would you look at it?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/08 ... the-world/

I might check it out later if I've got time, but I think I get the gist. I'm not really interested in becoming the borg to fight against the borg.

SafeAsMilk wrote:Not entirely sure why I should give a shit about the "Intelligence Principle".


You should give a shit because, if you don't, other people and nations will, and you'll end up in the same position as native ants vis à vis Argentine ants. Not a good place to be in at all!

If you say so.

SafeAsMilk wrote:You should watch to the end of the episode sometime.


I did, and when it was all said and done, Seven of Nine never reverted to "Annika Hansen" and later freely admitted, concerning the Borg, that "the lure of perfection is powerful". There is something to be said for that!

Well if it stokes your fire, then what can I say? Good luck with that.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#39  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 2:53 am

I'm not sure basing your world view off of the losing faction in a sci fi TV show is a good idea.

The borg got their arses kicked so fucking hard it was silly.

It does remind me of an actual mentally ill person I went to primary school with though. He was obsessed with Star Trek TNG and believed he was a fox (like a literal animal) and was going to marry Doctor Beverley Crusher. I remember one time he forgot to ask the teacher to go to the toilet for several hours, but knew he couldn't go unless he asked and then urinated across the entire classroom when he couldn't hold it in anymore.

His science fiction beliefs didn't get him out of the situation unfortunately.

Another time (and this was pretty characteristic behaviour for him) he decided that he couldn't understand why we ate food off of plates and drank liquids from glasses and spent the best part of lunchtime depositing his mashed potato into his glass and decanting his milk onto his plate. He eventually realised that he had two containers which were occupied by a sort of mashed potato/gravy/milk/salt+pepper combination that was thoroughly revolting, lost his temper and tipped it all over the person to his left.

I always felt pretty aggrieved that the teachers made me and another of the more mature boys (well, for our age, we were about 7 at the time) sit by him at lunch, it seemed like unfair treatment for being well behaved in class.
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Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#40  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 3:00 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Because I have no interest in being either totally divided or the borg. I enjoy being autonomous, and I enjoy working with other people.


"What you enjoy" is most likely not the fate of this planet. In comparison with the freedom and abundance of the hunter-gatherer way of life, the Agricultural Revolution was likely not introduced with the liking of many, though it was most likely more in line with previous developments in human evolution, where disposable males took the brunt of the disruption and, biologically, perhaps, it didn't matter much. I suspect the Industrial Revolution likely had similar elements, though I doubt that even the great industrial magnates of the time really compared to their Paleolithic predecessors. And now we are in an era where people will in all likelihood only put up feeble and ineffectual resistance to the transcendence of humanity, as already foreseen so long ago in the mid-19th century.

Maybe it's better if you don't fight it? And what good would fighting do you anyway?
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