Potential developments in human society

Split from 'Development of psychosis...' thread

Discussions about society in general and social activity.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#61  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:03 am

Thommo wrote:I'm guessing democracy will do better than Argentinian ants and characters from science fiction at exploring space.

It certainly has so far.


That is not entirely clear. For example, the best images we have of the surface of our most inhospitable neighbor Venus were produced by the robust if perhaps crude engineering of a Marxist-Leninist state. We might see the Venera probes as the "AK-47s" of space exploration. And, believe it or not, I am not any big fan of Marxism-Leninism but here I am simply pointing out what actually has happened.

Thommo wrote:On the plus side, this conversation has started to shed some light on whether you really were quite as rational in the face of irrationality as you described at the head of this conversation in #117.1


Oh, do tell.
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#62  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:06 am

Thommo wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Thommo wrote:No, the delusion is the part where you think a TV show is a model for reality. Not the part where you quote a 10 year old article about a speculative technology for rudimentary silent communication which has bugger all in common with commanders mind controlling their subordinates, turning them into a hive mind and probably (based on most technological speculations) won't ever come to pass anyway.


By what "technological speculations" will such neurotechnology as I have spoken of never come to fruition and why do you believe that any great military would not desire a hive mind, which would give them such unity as has never been given before to any past military "units"?


You're misreading the first part and the second part is your burden of proof, not mine.

I suggest you go back and read it again more carefully.


I am not clear here, when you say that the second part is my burden of proof. Are you asking me for demonstration that the highest planners of the US military desire a Borg-like hive mind? I've already furnished you with evidence and I suppose I can come up with more, if you like.
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#63  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:09 am

Keep It Real wrote:
Dynalon wrote:Humans are pretty good at inhabiting our planet but one thing that humanist narratives will not tell you is that the human body is altogether ill-suited for outer space: atrophying terribly even when subject to regular exercise and subject to all sorts of horrible carcinogenic cosmic rays. I'll leave it to you to decide whether transcending these weaknesses will be a purely democratic process.


Seems a little, erm, narcissistic (sounds cheesy coming from me now that word...), no: anthropocentric, to think humans and machines need be combined physically in this way. The machines do the physical space exploration (for now) and could carry the genetic code(s) for humans and the technology to gestate and raise said colonising humans if/when fertile ground is located. That approach also ameliorates the spectre of homogeneity inherent to the "Borg Mind" level of interconnectivity/cybernetics. :dunno:


How in God's name are weak, fragile human beings going to be brought forth on some arbitrary alien soil without any modification?
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#64  Postby Thommo » May 03, 2018 4:10 am

Dynalon wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Thommo wrote:No, the delusion is the part where you think a TV show is a model for reality. Not the part where you quote a 10 year old article about a speculative technology for rudimentary silent communication which has bugger all in common with commanders mind controlling their subordinates, turning them into a hive mind and probably (based on most technological speculations) won't ever come to pass anyway.


By what "technological speculations" will such neurotechnology as I have spoken of never come to fruition and why do you believe that any great military would not desire a hive mind, which would give them such unity as has never been given before to any past military "units"?


You're misreading the first part and the second part is your burden of proof, not mine.

I suggest you go back and read it again more carefully.


I am not clear here, when you say that the second part is my burden of proof. Are you asking me for demonstration that the highest planners of the US military desire a Borg-like hive mind? I've already furnished you with evidence and I suppose I can come up with more, if you like.


You haven't, and you can't.

I mean, for goodness sake, you just quoted soviet space programmes (and cherry picked ones at that) as "evidence" that ants or non-existent characters from a TV show are exploring space. It took more than three attempts for you to understand why I wasn't talking to dead people in this thread.

That isn't rationality, or evidence. It's chatting about which TV shows you like.
Last edited by Thommo on May 03, 2018 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27172

Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#65  Postby Keep It Real » May 03, 2018 4:12 am

Ah; didn't I say I wouldn't be engaging in this kind of heaviness for a bit...STFU KIR.
You're only conscious when you're thinking about consciousness.
User avatar
Keep It Real
 
Posts: 9188
Age: 39

Print view this post

Re: Potential developments in human society

#66  Postby Cito di Pense » May 03, 2018 4:15 am

Dynalon wrote:
I am not clear here, when you say that the second part is my burden of proof. Are you asking me for demonstration that the highest planners of the US military desire a Borg-like hive mind? I've already furnished you with evidence and I suppose I can come up with more, if you like.


Well, that sounds promising, as you've already furnished us with evidence that you believe the USSR was a Marxist-Leninist state. Your expertise knows no bounds, does it?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on May 03, 2018 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Al Forno, LLD,LDL,PPM
Posts: 29544
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#67  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:25 am

Thommo wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Dynalon wrote:

By what "technological speculations" will such neurotechnology as I have spoken of never come to fruition and why do you believe that any great military would not desire a hive mind, which would give them such unity as has never been given before to any past military "units"?


You're misreading the first part and the second part is your burden of proof, not mine.

I suggest you go back and read it again more carefully.


I am not clear here, when you say that the second part is my burden of proof. Are you asking me for demonstration that the highest planners of the US military desire a Borg-like hive mind? I've already furnished you with evidence and I suppose I can come up with more, if you like.


You haven't, and you can't.

I mean, for goodness sake, you just quoted soviet space programmes (and cherry picked ones at that) as evidence that ants or non-existent characters from a TV show are exploring space.


My examples were hardly cherry-picked. Again, I am no Marxist at all, but there are few areas where the Soviets were not out in front in space exploration and the current modular design of the ISS ultimately stems from Soviet designs of the first Salyut space stations. And as far as ants and other social insects are concerned, their behavior is very interesting for people here on Earth, though you may be loath to admit it:



In any case, it looks like you think science fiction has no influence on US military research, even though I've just informed you about how a DARPA researcher team looked up to Skynet and it also looks like you don't think that a hive mind can compete with traditional liberal democratic norms.

Well, for my part, I think you should think hard and long about this and wonder whether these democratic norms will ultimately serve your wellbeing in the end. I would say that this is hardly certain: something you should think well and hard on. :thumbup:
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#68  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:28 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
I am not clear here, when you say that the second part is my burden of proof. Are you asking me for demonstration that the highest planners of the US military desire a Borg-like hive mind? I've already furnished you with evidence and I suppose I can come up with more, if you like.


Well, that sounds promising, as you've already furnished us with evidence that you believe the USSR was a Marxist-Leninist state,


You don't believe it was. What was it then?
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#69  Postby surreptitious57 » May 03, 2018 4:37 am

The advancement of technology will inevitably raise moral questions about its use. I presume it is why humanists objected
to your ideas for making the world a more rational place. Although we dont have to look to the future to see the negative consequences of interacting with machines as this is happening now. The internet has completely transformed the way we communicate but it is not exclusively a force for good. And as technology advances the moral questions will become more complex for there will be no frame of reference for them. There will be many such questions for future generations which
are simply not on on our radar since they have yet to be realised but when they are there will be no easy answers to them

I dont label myself a humanist as such but I would in principle have no objection to making the world a more rational place as long as I have no moral objection with regard to how that could actually be implemented. Though I have zero interest in making the world a better place myself because I dont have the spoons to do so. However if I can see that something works
then I would in principle be in favour of it. I prefer pragmatism to idealism for the very simple reason that it actually works
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10195

Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#70  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:41 am

surreptitious57 wrote:The advancement of technology will inevitably raise moral questions about its use. I presume it is why humanists objected
to your ideas for making the world a more rational place. Although we dont have to look to the future to see the negative consequences of interacting with machines as this is happening now. The internet has completely transformed the way we communicate but it is not exclusively a force for good.


I suppose the fact that epics like the Odyssey or the Manas or the Mahabharata no longer crop up in our time might be a cost of shedding the oral tradition in favor of writing. But do you want to give literacy up?
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Potential developments in human society

#71  Postby Cito di Pense » May 03, 2018 4:44 am

Dynalon wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
I am not clear here, when you say that the second part is my burden of proof. Are you asking me for demonstration that the highest planners of the US military desire a Borg-like hive mind? I've already furnished you with evidence and I suppose I can come up with more, if you like.


Well, that sounds promising, as you've already furnished us with evidence that you believe the USSR was a Marxist-Leninist state,


You don't believe it was. What was it then?


It's hardly my problem, Dynalon. I'm just pointing out one among a number of glib and exorbitant proclamations you've made in this thread, accompanied by no evidence that your remarks are derived from professional expertise. After all, if you had expertise, you'd be talking to experts, instead of to random strangers on the internet. I'm just scratching at the delicate surface of a toy balloon that's fated soon to pop. The economic organization of the defunct Soviet Union is discussed by experts, and they don't publish their analyses as fuck-off one-liners followed by ontological fuckwittery like "well, what was it, then?"

You've already pulled that stunt once:

Dynalon wrote:So, to be clear, what are you exactly?
Last edited by Cito di Pense on May 03, 2018 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Al Forno, LLD,LDL,PPM
Posts: 29544
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#72  Postby surreptitious57 » May 03, 2018 4:52 am

Ant colonies are infinitely better organised than human society because they all share the same aim. Also true of bees and wasps. Homo sapiens are less efficient because of the eternal conflict between individualism and collectivism. That is why we can not function as well as our insect friends. Were we ants or bees or wasps then we would be a much more advanced species simply because we would all be working for the greater good
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10195

Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#73  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:54 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
I am not clear here, when you say that the second part is my burden of proof. Are you asking me for demonstration that the highest planners of the US military desire a Borg-like hive mind? I've already furnished you with evidence and I suppose I can come up with more, if you like.


Well, that sounds promising, as you've already furnished us with evidence that you believe the USSR was a Marxist-Leninist state,


You don't believe it was. What was it then?


It's hardly my problem, Dynalon. I'm just pointing out one among a number of glib and exorbitant proclamations you've made in this thread, accompanied by no evidence that your remarks are derived from professional expertise. After all, if you had expertise, you'd be talking to experts, instead of to random strangers on the internet. I'm just scratching at the delicate surface of a toy balloon that's fated soon to pop. The economic organization of the defunct Soviet Union is discussed by experts, and they don't publish their analyses as fuck-off one-liners followed by ontological fuckwittery like "well, what was it, then?"


I'm looking for the part, not where you make vague comments about how I ain't know nothin', but where you deny that the Soviet Union wasn't typically actually organized along Marxist-Leninist lines to some greater or lesser degree. Steak over sizzle, and I'd be glad to hear the "professional expertise" that disagrees with this, as surely I would receive from someone who talks to experts rather than random strangers on the Internet. Someone like you, of course.
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#74  Postby Dynalon » May 03, 2018 4:56 am

surreptitious57 wrote:Ant colonies are infinitely better organised than human society because they all share the same aim. Also true of bees and wasps. Homo sapiens are less efficient because of the eternal conflict between individualism and collectivism. That is why we can not function as well as our insect friends. Were we ants or bees or wasps then we would be a much more advanced species simply because we would all be working for the greater good


This is what I aim for and somehow this makes me some kind of big fucking villain, even when the people judging me mouth platitudes about the "pale blue dot" and how small and petty human thought usually is. Would you know it? Would you know that these people are absolute, bald hypocrites?
User avatar
Dynalon
 
Posts: 151

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#75  Postby surreptitious57 » May 03, 2018 5:05 am

Dynalon wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
The advancement of technology will inevitably raise moral questions about its use. I presume it is why humanists objected to your ideas for making the world a more rational place. Although we dont have to look to the future to
see the negative consequences of interacting with machines as this is happening now. The internet has completely transformed the way we communicate but it is not exclusively a force for good

I suppose the fact that epics like the Odyssey or the Manas or the Mahabharata no longer crop up in our time might be
a cost of shedding the oral tradition in favor of writing. But do you want to give literacy up

My goal in life is knowledge acquisition so I most definitely do not want to give literacy up. Also I dont think that the demarcation between fiction and non fiction is absolute. The great works of literature are only superficially fictional
because they contain fundamental truths about the human condition
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10195

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#76  Postby surreptitious57 » May 03, 2018 5:23 am

Dynalon wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Ant colonies are infinitely better organised than human society because they all share the same aim. Also true of bees and wasps. Homo sapiens are less efficient because of the eternal conflict between individualism and collectivism
That is why we can not function as well as our insect friends. Were we ants or bees or wasps then we would be a
much more advanced species simply because we would all be working for the greater good

This is what I aim for and somehow this makes me some kind of big fucking villain even when the people
judging me mouth platitudes about the pale blue dot and how small and petty human thought usually is

I think ego is too powerful in the human psyche to achieve this. It can work in relatively small numbers but not on city scales or above where there are different cultures and belief systems all existing together. And the larger that society becomes the more diversified it becomes and diversity increases individualism rather than diminish it which makes collectivism less likely
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10195

Print view this post

Re: Potential developments in human society

#77  Postby Cito di Pense » May 03, 2018 5:29 am

Dynalon wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Dynalon wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

Well, that sounds promising, as you've already furnished us with evidence that you believe the USSR was a Marxist-Leninist state,


You don't believe it was. What was it then?


It's hardly my problem, Dynalon. I'm just pointing out one among a number of glib and exorbitant proclamations you've made in this thread, accompanied by no evidence that your remarks are derived from professional expertise. After all, if you had expertise, you'd be talking to experts, instead of to random strangers on the internet. I'm just scratching at the delicate surface of a toy balloon that's fated soon to pop. The economic organization of the defunct Soviet Union is discussed by experts, and they don't publish their analyses as fuck-off one-liners followed by ontological fuckwittery like "well, what was it, then?"


I'm looking for the part, not where you make vague comments about how I ain't know nothin', but where you deny that the Soviet Union wasn't typically actually organized along Marxist-Leninist lines to some greater or lesser degree. Steak over sizzle, and I'd be glad to hear the "professional expertise" that disagrees with this, as surely I would receive from someone who talks to experts rather than random strangers on the Internet. Someone like you, of course.


That wasn't really my point. Not long prior to this (see quoted material), you were promising a definitive treatment of the notion that US military planners are seeking the development of a hive-mind function. Your comments about the Soviet Venera probe are neither here nor there relative to that. Come up with more, by all means, and qualify it as much as you want with waffle like "to some greater or lesser degree". All I'm detecting is you picking fights with invisible humanists.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on May 03, 2018 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Al Forno, LLD,LDL,PPM
Posts: 29544
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#78  Postby surreptitious57 » May 03, 2018 5:48 am

Ants or wasps or bees would probably not understand what individualism is. Any notion of being separate from the colony or hive would be as alien to them as the notion of universal collectivism is to us. It takes an incredible level of conditioning to
thinking of yourself as just part of society without any notion of individualism whatsoever. That is pushing the envelope way too far for serious consideration. My own philosophy is to be as detached as possible so avoid human beings much as I can. I would say that collectivism cannot work no matter how desirable it may be even if most of the human race and particularly in the West is blissfully unaware of it as an ideal solution in principle. But it can certainly be discussed as no idea should be
discarded less there is a very sound reason for doing so. And being incompatible with hive mind thinking is not such a reason
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10195

Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#79  Postby LucidFlight » May 03, 2018 6:02 am

Can we at least try to act a little bit more like lobsters?
OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
User avatar
LucidFlight
RS Donator
 
Name: Kento
Posts: 10801
Male

Country: UK/US/AU/SG
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: The development of psychosis in a schizophrenic

#80  Postby surreptitious57 » May 03, 2018 6:33 am


A less developed central nervous system would have its advantages
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10195

Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Sociology

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest